Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru
The National Assembly for Wales


Y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus
The Public Accounts Committee



Dydd Mawrth, 23 Mehefin 2015

Tuesday, 23 June 2015






Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon

Introductions, Apologies and Substitutions


Papurau i’w Nodi

Papers to Note


Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod

Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting



Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir

trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Mae hon yn fersiwn ddrafft o’r cofnod.

Cyhoeddir fersiwn derfynol ymhen pum diwrnod gwaith.


The proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record. The final version will be published within five working days.



Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol
Committee members in attendance


Mohammad Asghar

Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh Conservatives

Jocelyn Davies

Plaid Cymru
The Party of Wales

Mike Hedges


Sandy Mewies


Darren Millar

Ceidwadwyr Cymreig (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor)
Welsh Conservatives (Committee Chair)

Julie Morgan


Jenny Rathbone


Aled Roberts

Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru
Welsh Liberal Democrats


Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol
National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance


Claire Griffiths

Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

Michael Kay


Hannah Johnson


Senior Researcher

Sophie Knott

Cynghorwr Arbenigol
Expert Adviser

Alan Morris

Cynghorwr Arbenigol
Expert Adviser

Nick Selwyn

Cynghorwr Arbenigol
Expert Adviser

Dave Thomas

Cynghorwr Arbenigol
Expert Adviser

Huw Vaughan Thomas

Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru
Auditor General for Wales

Siân Thomas

Senior Researcher

Joanest Varney-Jackson

Uwch-gynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Senior Legal Adviser


Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:00.
The meeting began at 09:00.


Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon
Introductions, Apologies and Substitutions


[1]               Darren Millar: Good morning, everybody. Welcome to today’s meeting of the Public Accounts Committee. If I can just take this opportunity to welcome some of the visitors that we have to the committee today from the States of Jersey’s Public Accounts Committee, especially the Chair, Deputy Andrew Lewis.


[2]               May I just remind everybody that the National Assembly for Wales is a bilingual institution, and that Members and anybody else contributing to today’s proceedings should feel free to do so through either English or Welsh, as they see fit? Of course, there are headsets available for translation and sound amplification. If I could encourage everybody to switch off their mobile phones, and I remind Members that, for the formal part of the meeting, they don’t need to operate any of the microphones. The other housekeeping notice is that, in the event of a fire, we should, obviously, follow the directions of any of the ushers.


[3]               We haven’t received any apologies for this morning’s meeting, so we’ll go straight into item 2 on our agenda.




Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note


[4]               Darren Millar: We’ve got a number of papers to note. First of all, we’ve got the minutes of our meeting held on 16 June. I’ll take it that those are noted.


[5]               We have a letter from Ann Jones, Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, regarding the ongoing piece of work—the inquiry that they are doing into supply teaching. Members will remember that we wrote to the Chair of the committee in respect of our recommendation on lead governors for HR matters, in order to reduce the unnecessary teacher absences. The committee’s taking that up as part of its work.


[6]               We also have a letter from the Minister for Economy, Science and Transport, clarifying some information in relation to Fabian Way in Swansea. Mike, this was an issue that you raised, regarding whether it should be a trunk road or not. It’s still under consideration, I think, is the Minister’s response.


[7]               Mike Hedges: Can we ask for an update? It says here something’s going to happen this year, isn’t it?


[8]               Darren Millar: Yes.


[9]               Mike Hedges: This summer. Can we ask for an update in the autumn?


[10]           Darren Millar: Yes, of course we can. Anything else on that? Are you content with the response otherwise?


[11]           Mike Hedges: Of course, they’re still looking at it. It’s just that—


[12]           Darren Millar: They’ve been looking at it a long time, haven’t they?


[13]           Mike Hedges: I don’t know how well people know it, but it is, effectively, a trunk road.


[14]           Darren Millar: Yes. Dual carriageway both sides, for most of the length.


[15]           Mike Hedges: The whole length, going into the city centre. It’s a major road. It’s more of a major road than the A470 is in some places.


[16]           Darren Millar: We can also reflect that letter in any future work we do.


[17]           We’ve had some additional information from Community Housing Cymru, on our welfare reform inquiry. We’ll have an opportunity to discuss some of that later this morning.


[18]           Sandy Mewies: We will be discussing that, then?


[19]           Darren Millar: Yes. We’ve got a key issue paper to discuss.


[20]           Sandy Mewies: Actually, it’s quite substantial, isn’t it, with the annexes as well?


[21]           Darren Millar: Yes.


[22]           Then, we’ve had some more information from the Welsh Local Government Association in relation to their appearance at the committee on 19 May. That’s an interesting response as well, particularly in relation to their inability to disclose the agreement that had been reached between 20 of the 22 local authorities, in relation to how they use the support grants that are available to support people who are impacted by welfare reform.


[23]           Sandy Mewies: [Inaudible.]—ask ourselves.


[24]           Darren Millar: Yes, but I’m surprised that they can’t also share that information with us—


[25]           Sandy Mewies: Well, if they can’t get it, we need to ask, don’t we?


[26]           Darren Millar: Or that it’s in the public domain. Again, we’ll pick it up during the discussion later.


[27]           We’ve got a third piece of correspondence on the welfare reform inquiry, from the Welsh Government, following their appearance.


[28]           I’ll take it that all of those are noted. Yes.




Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting






bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).


that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).


Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.



[29]           Darren Millar: Item 3, then. I’ll move a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of today’s meeting. Does any Member object? There are no objections, so we’ll go into private session. Thank you.


Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.



Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 09:04.
The public part of the meeting ended at 09:04.