Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru
The National Assembly for Wales


Y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus
The Public Accounts Committee


Dydd Mawrth, 8  Ionawr 2013
Tuesday, 8 January 2013





Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon
Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions


Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note


Cynnig Gweithdrefnol
Procedural Motion


Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd.


The proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included.


Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol
Committee members in attendance


Mohammad Asghar

Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh Conservatives

Jocelyn Davies

Plaid Cymru
The Party of Wales

Mike Hedges


Darren Millar

Ceidwadwyr Cymreig (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor)
Welsh Conservatives (Committee Chair)

Julie Morgan


Gwyn R. Price


Jenny Rathbone


Aled Roberts

Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru

Welsh Liberal Democrats


Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol
National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance


Dan Collier

Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

Joanest Jackson

Uwch-gynghorydd Cyfreithiol

Senior Legal Adviser

Tom Jackson



Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 9.00 a.m.
The meeting began at 9.00 a.m.


Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon
Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions


[1]               Darren Millar: Good morning all, and welcome to the first meeting of the Public Accounts Committee of 2013. Happy new year to everyone, and I hope that you had a good Christmas break. I remind you that the National Assembly for Wales is a bilingual institution and that people should feel free to contribute to this meeting in Welsh or English as they see fit. For those requiring translation, it is available via the headsets, as is sound amplification for anyone that requires it. I ask everyone to switch off their mobile phones, BlackBerrys and pagers as these can interfere with the broadcasting and other equipment. The final housekeeping notice is that the ushers will tell us where to go literally in the event of an emergency. We have not received any apologies today; we have a full house.


9.01 a.m.


Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note


[2]               Darren Millar: We have a number of papers to note. The first is correspondence from the Auditor General for Wales to the Minister for Finance and Leader of the House on which he has copied us in. He wants us to consider this correspondence when we commence Stage 2 of the Public Audit (Wales) Bill. Paper 2 is another item of correspondence relating to that Bill from the trade unions to me regarding their views on the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006. The third paper is correspondence from the Auditor General for Wales on the Wales Audit Office local government fees scale. Of course, it is a scale not just for local government, but for some of the other authorities that the Wales Audit Office looks at. We can probably consider the fourth paper as we look at item 5 on our agenda, namely correspondence from the Permanent Secretary regarding ministerial access to papers of former Ministers. It is an interesting response that I am sure we will want to look at. I take it that those papers are noted.


9.02 a.m.


Cynnig Gweithdrefnol
Procedural Motion


[3]               Darren Millar: I move that


the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order No. 17.42(ix).


[4]               I see that the committee is in agreement.


Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion agreed.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 9.02 a.m.
The public part of the meeting ended at 9.02 a.m.