The proceedings are
reported in the language in which they were spoken in the
committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous
interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied
corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the
transcript.
[12]
I want to consult further on the specific
on the specific recommendations of the Hazelkorn review. Members
will be aware of the decision in July of last year by the former
Minister to undertake the Hazelkorn review. That was published in
March of this year, prior to the election. Now more than ever, our
educational institutions in Wales must step up to the plate, and
I’ll be looking very carefully at the recommendations in
Hazelkorn and, after fully considering them, I will come back to
the Chamber and, indeed, this committee, if the committee sees fit,
to discuss a way forward with regard to that.
|
[13]
I want to explore the potential expansion
of the remit of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol to include further
education. That is very much tied up with consideration of
Hazelkorn, and I want to look at whether there are benefits to be
accrued by expanding the college, and how any additional
responsibilities would work on a practical level. I want to
prioritise support for enhanced links between education and
industry, enabling innovation and entrepreneurship across our
public and private sectors in collaboration with not just schools,
but universities and colleges. We have to really encourage
conversations between learners and employers, sectors and
institutions. Now, this is at an early stage, but it is vital that
we get this right if we want the economy to prosper.
|
[14]
So, that’s just a flavour of the
nine priorities that I’ve agreed with the First Minister. It
builds on the statement that I made to the Chamber yesterday. I
recognise that many of the building blocks have been put in train
to raise standards of education and training. I truly believe that
Welsh education is on the up, but I acknowledge that there is much
more to do. We need to increase the pace of improvement and change.
There are challenging times ahead, but I look forward to that
challenge.
|
[15]
Lynne Neagle: Thank you very much to the Cabinet Secretary for
those opening remarks. So, we’ll have an opportunity now for
discussion with Members. The first question is from Oscar
Asghar.
|
[16]
Mohammad Asghar:
Thank you very much, Chair, and thanks,
Kirsty, for telling us all this little brief that you just
mentioned. According to your own party manifesto, you were saying
you would be setting aside £42 million for infant and young
children class sizes to be shortened. The First Minister only
recently said that there’d be a £100 million pot. Do you
think that that money will come from that pot while you’re in
the Cabinet now?
|
[17]
Kirsty Williams:
Thank you for the question, Oscar. As
with all Cabinet colleagues, I am embarking on a series of
discussions with the finance Minister around the budgets for the
department in the next financial year. Those meetings are at an
early stage. What I can say is that we will be negotiating hard
with the Minister for finance to ensure that we have the resources
within the department to deliver on the priorities and promises
that I have made and I have just outlined. Those discussions are at
an early stage, but I am confident that, from within my own
resources, which we’ll be looking to realign against these
priorities, as well as additional commitments that I hope to be
able to bring into the department’s budget, we’ll be
able to deliver on these priorities.
|
[18]
Lynne Neagle: Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd.
|
[19]
Llyr Gruffydd: You touched yesterday on some of the issues around
this, of course, this policy of yours, and you acknowledged that it
isn’t just about money for more teachers, necessarily.
I’m not sure whether I should declare an interest as a school
governor—I probably should—but I can think of at least
one example where there are real physical constraints in terms of
school buildings, and if you were to move from having two classes
to having three, then they’d probably need a new school. So,
how are you hoping to address some of those issues? If your answer
is—and I probably shouldn’t pre-empt your
answer—but if you were to tell me, ‘Well, we can look
at classroom assistants’, well, they have classroom
assistants, so what’s different?
|
[20]
Kirsty Williams:
Llyr, as you say, this is a complex
policy area. What is important, having listened very carefully to
the views of teachers and indeed to the views of parents, is that
class sizes is an important issue for them. There are some real
challenges in how we reduce class sizes. You’ve just outlined
one of those challenges—the physical constraints, perhaps, of
a building. There are others, and I acknowledge that.
That’s why I have asked officials, as I said yesterday, to
scope a range of options about how we can address this. We look to
start with our largest classes first. We do know that some
classes—permitted, it’s not that people are acting in a
way that is illegal or doing it outside the auspices of the local
authority—but we do know that we have classes over 30. We
need to look at a range of options and how we can bring class sizes
down. It may be that we’re able to, in some cases, do
something about physical space, but it’s more than just
bricks and mortar; it is about being able to have the resources in
a school to look at additional teaching staff or additional
learning support staff. So, there’s a range of ways.
|
[21]
There’s not one answer to solving this problem. But
it’s important. It’s important because it matters to
teachers. We know from the research by De Montfort University that
class size has a big impact on the ability to recruit and retain
teaching staff. A huge impact on morale. If you just read last
week’s The Times Educational Supplement, you will see
that there’s a direct correlation—I can’t even
say it; there’s a direct link, that’s a better
word—there is a direct link between levels of sickness and
staff absence and issues around class sizes and sizes of schools.
So, it’s important for teachers, it’s important for
parents, we know it makes the biggest difference to our poorest
children. So, this policy works in conjunction with our commitment
to the pupil deprivation grant because we know it makes the biggest
difference to poorer children.
|
[22]
It makes the biggest difference to those children whose first
language is not Welsh. We know, in many areas of our biggest
cities, schools are teaching a cohort of children who come from a
wide variety of backgrounds, whose home languages—I went to
one school recently where there were 10 or 15 home languages of
children in that particular school. We know it makes a difference
to those children as well, and to our youngest children. So, there
are reasons to do it. There’s no one simple answer and
solution to doing it. That’s why officials are scoping out a
whole range.
|
[23]
Llyr Gruffydd: So, it may not necessarily be reducing the size of
the class. It could actually be providing more staffing resource
within that classroom.
|
[24]
Kirsty Williams:
It could be in some circumstances, if
that’s appropriate and that is the best way in which we can
address the issue of workload. What we do know—again, talking
to teachers—because of difficult constraints, we know that
some schools have had to lose their teaching assistants. It’s
often the one place where people are able to make savings within
their school budgets. As a governor, you would know that. When
savings have to be made, it is often the human resource that is the
easiest way to take money out of your system. So, it could very
well be that we need to invest in learning support assistants. As I
said yesterday, I’m looking at prioritising career pathways
and training opportunities and resourcing a move to higher level
teaching assistants. That’s one way in which we can ensure
we’ve got the right skills working alongside qualified
teaching staff to be able to free up teachers then to be able to
work in smaller groups with children—set the agenda. So,
there’s not one way of solving this issue.
|
[25]
Lynne Neagle: I’ve got Julie Morgan next, then Darren
Millar.
|
[26]
Julie Morgan: Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, you said that
you’d been speaking to teachers and parents and that they
raised this concern about the classes. I wondered if you could
expand on that in terms of what people in Wales have directly said
to you, because my information, from the headteachers and teachers
I’ve spoken to is that they have said, ‘Yes, it would
be nice to have smaller classes’, but they didn’t
actually see that as an educational priority. I wondered what your
comment would be on that.
|
[27]
Kirsty Williams:
I’m surprised, Julie, because
I’ve yet to come across a headteacher or a classroom teacher
who said that class sizes weren’t important to them. In fact,
as schools in some parts of Wales are sent their indicative budgets
for the forthcoming years, they’re having to move to larger
classes and that’s a source of great, great concern to them.
It’s a great source of concern to me in terms of the impact
on standards. So, what teachers say to me is that, with a large
class size or a large class without the ability to work alongside a
learning support assistant, they simply cannot differentiate
between the different needs of children in that class. In some of
our schools, we’re asking teachers to teach in a large class
with mixed age groups, which is an added challenge. Not only have
you got a large class, you have to differentiate between the pupils
who are in year 6 and are in year 5, which is an added challenge to
being able to really make an impact on those individual
children.
|
09:45
|
[28]
Is it the only way in which we can raise
standards in our schools? Of course it isn’t. If we have a
poorly trained, poorly motivated teacher in front of a class, it
wouldn’t, I suppose, matter very much if the class had 10 in
it, you know. So, it is not the only way in which we need to raise
standards. But I would point you to the research that says it does
make a difference to the recruitment and retention of good staff,
it makes a difference to our poorest children, those children who
don’t have English as a first language, and our youngest
children. So, the message I receive from teachers and parents is
that it is an important issue. It’s not the only issue they
want to see us tackle, but it is something they want us to deal
with.
|
[29]
Julie Morgan: I wanted to flag up what people had said to
me—
|
[30]
Kirsty Williams:
Of course, sure.
|
[31]
Julie Morgan: And a lot of the schools don’t have mixed-age
groups, so that isn’t an issue for them. But, as I say, they
didn’t see it as a priority. So, thank you.
|
[32]
Lynne Neagle: Darren Millar.
|
[33]
Darren Millar: Yes, just two very brief questions. Will some schools
have less cash in their budgets as a result of this policy?
Presumably, if they’ve currently got 30 in a class and they
don’t have the capital requirements in terms of increasing
the size of their school—it’s just not physically
possible—and they have to reduce down to 25, that’ll
mean less cash for that school. And it could potentially have a big
impact on that school, couldn’t it?
|
[34]
Kirsty Williams:
Darren, this policy is designed to assist
schools, assist school leaders, and classroom teachers. It is not a
policy that is designed to penalise schools. That’s why
officials are looking very carefully at a range of options, rather
than just charging ahead with a simple policy that says, ‘You
have to reduce your intake’. That’s why we’re
looking at a range of options for doing it, because we do not want
there to be any unintended consequences of trying to address the
issue of teacher workload.
|
[35]
Darren Millar: So, no school will lose out in terms of its finances
as a result of this policy?
|
[36]
Kirsty Williams:
That is not my intention, and officials
and I will be working very hard, as I said, to ensure that there
are no unintended consequences as a result of an effort to try and
address workload. And that’s why we will look at a range of
options in terms of implementing it, not simply a simple thing,
which would be to restrict people’s intake into their
schools.
|
[37]
Darren Millar: And just in terms of this £42 million figure,
where did that figure come from?
|
[38]
Kirsty Williams:
Ah, the £42 million figure that was
contained within the Welsh Liberal Democrat manifesto was the best
attempts of the Members’ Research Service here at the
National Assembly for Wales, in conjunction with the parliamentary
service in Westminster, and Scotland, and Northern Ireland, to give
a best estimate of how we would be able to arrive at a costing. So,
it was independently done in conjunction with parliamentary
researchers across the UK. It’s not an easy figure to come
to, but that was the best attempts of those—independent of
the party—to try and price out the policy.
|
[39]
Darren Millar: You’ll be able to circulate that to committee
members, will you, so they can have a look at it—the basis on
which it was estimated?
|
[40]
Kirsty Williams:
Well, it’s not a Cabinet paper,
it’s not a Government paper. You would have to refer your
request, I suspect, to the Welsh Liberal Democrats.
|
[41]
Darren Millar: Well, you are the Welsh Liberal Democrats.
|
[42]
Lynne Neagle: Darren, Darren, Darren.
|
[43]
Kirsty Williams:
No, I’m not the leader of the Welsh
Liberal Democrats, and I’m not the chairman of the national
executive council of the Welsh Liberal Democrats.
|
[44]
Lynne Neagle: We’ll be returning to this as a committee,
anyway. John Griffiths.
|
[45]
John Griffiths:
Chair, I wanted to widen the discussion,
in terms of community-focused schools at this stage, if
that’s okay, in terms of raising standards. Because I think
there’s a lot of evidence that, in order to improve our
educational results and achievements in Wales, it’s very
necessary to work with parents and the wider community as well as
pupils. And I think it’s quite patchy in terms of
community-focused schools. I think it works quite well in some
areas, where they have built these partnerships, and the schools
are open to the community and they get a range of organisations in
to add value to the educational experience in a variety of
ways—sport, culture, and others. And, you know, it really is
conducive to working with families, the wider family, and the
community. And also, of course, it makes use of those school
buildings at holiday time, evenings and weekends, whereas,
otherwise, they may lie idle.
|
[46]
So, I think there’s a lot of
plusses from the community-focused school approach, but I do
believe it’s very patchy across Wales. I know it’s in
the early stages of your tenure as Cabinet Secretary for Education,
but I just wonder whether you’d been able to give any thought
as to how we might find mechanisms to ensure that all of our
schools, across Wales, become community focused and build these
important partnerships with parents and the wider
community.
|
[47]
Kirsty Williams:
Well, thank you, John, and I think the
point you raise is absolutely crucial because, if we’re to
raise educational standards across Wales, that is a job for
Welsh Government, it’s a job for local education authorities,
it’s a job for individual schools, but parents and
communities have a huge role to play in being able to help us do
that job. I want to see an increased role for parents in Welsh
education. I’m looking at models by which we could be able to
engage parents in more of a national discussion; there are some
interesting models in Scotland that I’m currently looking
at.
|
[48]
But you’re absolutely right: some of the outstanding work
that some schools are doing, in particular with using their pupil
deprivation grant money, is where they have been able to establish
genuine links out into the community. So, yesterday, I visited the
Tremorfa Nursery School, just here in Cardiff. They have used their
early years pupil deprivation grant to appoint someone who spends a
great deal of time engaging with the local community and running
activities in that nursery school. There are some children who have
been attending that nursery with their mums and dads since they
were literally a few days old—literally a few days
old—because that school has a community room, they run
‘tea and toast’ mornings, they run mother and dad baby
groups, those children then graduate, as soon as they’re
walking, into the toddler group, and they work really, really hard
with all the other partnerships in the area. So, that kind of
model—and if we look at excellent use of pupil deprivation
grant in the primary and in the secondary sector, they’re
using that money to get out into the community, to have those
conversations with parents and engage those parents in their
education.
|
[49]
I recently launched the Ready to Learn programme for Welsh
Government—again, very much an emphasis on trying to build
relationships with parents to help them get their children ready
for school. So, I think there are lots and lots and lots of
possibilities, through engaging parents, engaging the wider
community, engaging industry—I recently visited, with Hefin,
his old school, actually, Heolddu, and GE were there that day,
working on some lessons with the school. Recently, with the First
Minister, I visited Sony, where Sony had been having local schools
come into their innovation plant to look at coding and technology
careers in that field. So, when I talk about ‘community
focused’, I don’t want to just talk about parents; I
want to talk about the wider community in its fullest
sense—working with local employers and organisations to be
able to give children a very broad range of experiences that
actually make connections for them between what they’re
learning and future aspirations they may have for their lives. But
involving parents, and getting parents in, is crucial, especially
where parents have had a negative experience in their own
education. That can be a really big barrier to them getting engaged
with their own children’s education.
|
[50]
John Griffiths: Could I just quickly follow, if I may,
Chair? That’s very encouraging, but I just think that, at a
time when that isn’t much resource around for new
build—although we still have a substantial programme,
thankfully—it’s very frustrating to see some school
buildings not being used at evenings, weekends, and in holidays.
Sometimes, you hear that it’s just seen as an additional
factor, an additional responsibility, that maybe the headteacher
doesn’t particularly want to engage with because they feel
they’ve got a lot of other things to do that they regard as
more of the mainstream educational offer that they’re
responsible for delivering. Sometimes, it’s about, you know,
the caretaker wants an extra payment and it’s not catered for
in the school budget, or there are issues around security and the
safety of the site and so on. But all of these issues, I think, are
easily overcome, and I just wonder if you might think of some
mechanism whereby we could be confident that all schools in Wales
will open up to the community and parents as some currently do.
|
[51]
Kirsty Williams: John, I’m very willing to look at
that to assess to what level this lack of engagement is actually
happening. I must say, from my own experience, in my own backyard,
I know local high schools that have taken on the provision of the
local leisure facilities because the local council would have
closed them, and, without the schools stepping up to the plate and
saying, ‘We’re going to run those,’ those
facilities would be lost. I can think of a high school in my own
constituency that has just used some of its building. It hosts the
local gym and it hosts the local youth club after school.
It’s about to take on the local library; otherwise, the
library will close in that particular location. So, the library is
locating to the school. So, I think, in my experience, rather than
headteachers being curmudgeonly and saying, ‘Oh, we
haven’t got time to do this’, I come across people all
the time who are absolutely anxious, because they see it as being
of benefit to their school and their pupils to play that wider role
in their community. If there are barriers to doing that, I’d
like to know about them, and then we can see what we can do to
address those barriers, so that all schools can play that kind of
role in their community.
|
[52]
Lynne Neagle: Thank you. I want to move—. [Interruption.] No, Darren. No, I want to move
on now, otherwise we’re not going to cover the other
areas.
|
[53]
Darren Millar: It’s just on the barriers.
|
[54]
Lynne Neagle: No, no, no. We’re not going to—.
We’ll return to this in future. We need to move on now to the
pupil deprivation grant. Can I just ask Members to ask their
questions succinctly, please? Julie.
|
[55]
Julie Morgan: Thank you, Chair. Breaking the cycle of poverty and
deprivation I know is one of your great aims, and I think
we’re all behind you on that. The pupil deprivation grant is
one of the ways that it has been addressed. Could you tell us the
evidence of its success so far?
|
[56]
Kirsty Williams:
I guess there are many ways in which we
can look at the impact of PDG, but the strongest piece of evidence
is that, last year, for the first time ever, we saw a closing in
the attainment gap at GCSE level between our children that are on
free school meals and their counterparts who are not. That is the
first time that that has ever, ever happened. There was a 3.9
percentage point increase in pupils who attained the level 2
inclusive threshold in 2014-15 GCSEs. So, you know, that test is
being passed.
|
[57]
We also know that we have already
exceeded the target that the previous Government set itself for our
foundation phase children. So, the previous administration had a
target, which was to reduce the attainment gap by 10 per cent over
the 2012 figure by 2017. We’ve already done it. We’ve
already surpassed that in terms of early years. We are having to
set ourselves a new target to see how far we can push ourselves.
Research shows that improvements in this category—.
We’re seeing improvements across the board, but improvements
in this category—for free school meals—is happening
faster. We know that the number of children who are not attending
school who are on free school meals is dropping. So, these children
are in school more often. We know that these children who are on
free school meals are being excluded less often than they
previously were. So, on a range of indicators, we can see that this
resource is making a difference.
|
[58]
It’s not just the money, Julie.
It’s not just the money. We have changed the conversation in
our schools around the attainment levels of these particular
children. We have made it important. That change of dialogue, that
change of conversation, is really focusing schools’ attention
on what they can do for this cohort of children. They are showing
incredible commitment to driving up standards. We are seeing an
increasingly sophisticated use of the money, which is being
reported on. Independent research by Cardiff University has
demonstrated the impact that it is having. It is quite difficult,
because, you know, we can’t run an experiment where we have
some children on free school meals who we don’t give pupil
deprivation grants to, and some children that we do. So, in that
sense, we can’t run a study of that kind to compare and
contrast. But what we do know is that, this group of children,
their grades are improving quicker than everybody else’s. But
we have still got a way to go.
|
[59]
Julie Morgan: I think that’s very encouraging. The
independent research that you mentioned, by Cardiff University: is
that something that’s ongoing? Is this being independently
evaluated as you go along? I realise you can’t have a core
group that has, and that doesn’t—but is this ongoing
research?
|
[60]
Kirsty Williams:
Well, I’m not sure about the
ongoing Cardiff research. It continues to be a focus for Estyn
inspections. So, as a part of Estyn’s routine inspections of
individual schools, local authorities and consortia, the use of PDG
is an ongoing focus of their work. But I’m not clear, and I
will have to write to you—. I think that that was maybe a
bespoke piece of research by the Wales Institute of Social and
Economic Research, Data and Methods, but I will write to you to let
you know if that is ongoing.
|
[61]
Julie Morgan: It would be really good, if this is being so
successful, that we are researching it as it goes along. Two quick
questions, because I know we have to move on as swiftly as
possible: the expanded pupil deprivation grant, if you could
highlight what you are thinking of there, and the finances for
it.
|
10:00
|
[62]
Kirsty Williams: There is a commitment between myself and
the First Minister to expand the pupil depregration—I
can’t even speak this morning—deprivation grant. We are
in difficult budgetary terms. This is already a very significant,
high-priced ticket item that has been, in previous years, paid for
out of the central pot. I will be negotiating with the finance
Minister about what resources will be available for the pupil
deprivation grant, and taking advice from the profession, and from
officials, about, if there is room for expansion, where we can get
the most value where we can expand it.
|
[63]
Julie Morgan: Thank you.
|
[64]
Lynne Neagle: Hefin on this.
|
[65]
Hefin David: Diolch. I’m in the process of meeting
with the heads of the secondary schools in my constituency, just
holding general discussions. One of the issues raised is that
parents who find short-term work become no longer eligible for free
school meals, and then, when those contracts end, they’re not
then re-registering for free school meals, and therefore pupils are
kind of dropping out of the system. I just wondered if you could
reflect on that in the context of inclusivity in the pupil
deprivation grant.
|
[66]
Kirsty Williams: Well, I certainly will reflect on that,
Hefin. As I said, we’re looking at what we can do to refresh
PDG—are we using it to best effect, what can we do next? So,
I’m very willing to take that on board. We will also have to
reflect on changes to the benefits system from the Westminster
Government, where, actually, the rolling out of universal credit
can make it quite difficult to identify, potentially, people who
are on free school meals. So, there are some very technical issues,
as well as policy input issues, that we’re having to look at
at the moment, and I’m willing to look at that.
|
[67]
Hefin David: Thank you.
|
[68]
Lynne Neagle: Thank you. We’ll move on now then to the issue
of teaching excellence. Oscar.
|
[69]
Mohammad Asghar: Thank you very much indeed, Chair, again.
The thing is we are having reports from various professors, and one
professor is Professor Hazelkorn, and the report is that it is
still a very hard nut to crack. We are not heading towards teachers
where—. The teachers actually need more training, more
professional training, to teach our next generation. What my
question to you is—. That also already directly makes an
impact on our economy. It’s just a word of caution. I am
personally friendly with teachers, who give me input, apart from
what is written here, that teachers are inundated with other
activities, rather than teaching children. That is the area,
Minister, which you have to consider very seriously. Our teachers
are very good teachers in schools. They need training, continuous
training, yes, but the thing is one-off training is not good.
Continuous training: that’s one. And let our children have
their own aptitude tested—tested, rather than an
examination—which teachers should be giving you, year on
year, to make sure our children are getting the full potential of
their life. That is your objective. So, my question to you is: the
recommendations of this professor, how far have they gone, and are
you going to accept all their recommendations, or are you going to
add or subtract something?
|
[70]
Kirsty Williams:
First of all, with regard to Professor
Hazelkorn’s work, as I said in my opening statement, we are
currently analysing that report, and we will come forward shortly
with a statement on how we intend to take that forward. Perhaps of
more interest to the Member would be where we are with Professor
Furlong’s report into training teachers. We know that initial
teacher training is not what we would want it to be. And we are
driving forward the recommendations of Furlong in terms of reforms
to initial teacher training. That then has to coincide with
recognising that many of our teachers are currently in the system,
so we need to get the initial teacher training right for people who
are going to come into the profession, but, actually, we have a
massive cohort of teachers who are already in the profession, and
we are looking to see what we can do to beef up the new deal. Some
work has been started on that, but is it really in tune with what
we need the continual professional development of teachers to be
like?
|
[71]
I announced yesterday my intention to set
up a leadership academy to look at supporting the next generation
of school leaders. And this will all form part of the workforce and
learning strategy that I announced yesterday, bringing it all under
one umbrella, because, at the moment, we’ve got a strategy
here for this bit and a strategy here for this bit, and a bit over
here for this bit, and it’s in danger of being very
disjointed, and, of course, these things all flow together, because
we want people coming into the profession, developing their skills,
going on to be the senior leadership team, and then going on to be
heads, and then executive heads, under the model that we would
like.
|
[72]
I’m committed to doing what we can
with regard to workload. That’s part of the reason
we’re focusing on class sizes. But we will be working with
the profession to look at what we can do as part of a bureaucracy
audit to say, ‘Well, what are you spending your time on? Is
it adding value to your work and if it’s not, let us have
some specifics and if we can simplify the system for you, then
I’m ready and willing to simplify that
system.’
|
[73]
Lynne Neagle: Okay. Hefin next and can I remind Members again to be
brief in their questions and then we’ll get more questions
in.
|
[74]
Hefin David: Okay. Well, I’d say to Oscar that he
shouldn’t be sceptical about recommendations from
academics—they can be very helpful. I should also declare an
interest that up until Monday I’m employed by Cardiff
Metropolitan University as a senior lecturer, when my contract
comes to an end.
|
[75]
On the role of teacher training,
it’s very encouraging to hear that you’re looking at
that and reviewing provision. I’ve met with people who
provide autistic support in my constituency and I’ve spoken
to the alliance of deaf organisations in Wales and one of the
concerns that they’ve raised is that teacher-training modules
don’t have enough in them—teacher-training degrees and
qualifications like the postgraduate certificate in education and
bachelor of education degrees—about additional learning
needs. Would you like to comment on that?
|
[76]
Kirsty Williams:
I absolutely recognise that feedback from
the profession. As I said yesterday in my statement, we are looking
at the additional learning needs legislation that we’re
bringing forward. It is about ensuring that everybody in a
classroom situation does have some knowledge of high-incidence,
low-complexity additional learning needs. But then they need to be
able to have access to specialists who can assist them in their
work. All postgraduate courses, run and accredited by our initial
teacher-training providers offering qualified teacher status, must
meet the current QTS standards that require student teachers to
demonstrate that they understand the diverse learning needs of our
children and young people.
|
[77]
Obviously, as we develop the new suite of
initial teacher-training recommendations for the providers going
forward and as we look at the new deal and continuous professional
development of our current workforce, and as we look at new
professional standards, which we’re also looking to bring in,
then we must make sure that we have the right skills and are giving
our teachers a broader understanding of those needs. But, as I said
yesterday, my expectation, arising out of the additional learning
needs Bill, is that there will be access to people with expertise
in visual impairment and hearing impairment and that that expertise
would be available in local authority areas for people to draw on,
but we do need to make sure that in our initial teacher-training
provision, people have access to understanding the learning needs
of a whole cohort of children.
|
[78]
Lynne Neagle: Thank you. Llyr.
|
[79]
Llyr
Gruffydd: Byddaf yn gofyn y cwestiwn yn Gymraeg. Fe gyfeirioch chi ddoe,
wrth gwrs, yn eich datganiad, rŷch chi newydd sôn amdano,
am yr academi arweinyddiaeth sydd am gael ei chreu. A ydy
hynny’n golygu bod dyddiau’r CPCP, sef y cymhwyster
sydd angen ar athrawon i fod yn benaethiaid, wedi eu
rhifo?
|
Llyr
Gruffydd: I will ask the
question in Welsh. You referred yesterday in your statement, which
you’ve just mentioned, to the leadership academy that will be
created. Does that mean that the days of the qualifications that
teachers need to be headteachers are numbered?
|
[80]
Kirsty Williams:
That will be a matter for the leadership
college. It will also be a matter for the Education Workforce
Council in Wales. What we want to ensure is that we have continuing
professional development and qualifications that equip people to do
the job. What I am conscious of, and what I am looking at, is not
creating any artificial barriers, but maybe restrict the pool of
talent that we can recruit from, especially in terms of school
leadership. I am aware of many talented Welsh people, who have
initially done their teaching work and their teaching practice
across the border in England, but who are extremely fed up with the
education system they now find themselves working in and would look
to return to Wales to take up the teaching profession and
leadership opportunities in Wales and sometimes there are barriers
that prevent that from happening easily. So, I will want to be
looking, with the education workforce and the leadership academy
and with the unions, at how best we can create this suite of
qualifications and training opportunities for future leaders, but I
do not want to do it in a way that restricts our talent pool. In
fact, I want to do it in a way that is expansive and allows those
people, who perhaps don’t want to do their teaching in
another part of the UK—. I want Wales to be the place to be a
teacher and that’s the kind of system that we want to create
here.
|
[81]
Lynne Neagle: Thank you. John, a brief question.
|
[82]
John Griffiths:
On physical literacy, Cabinet Secretary,
I think that one important part of Tanni
Grey-Thompson’s report was teaching standards and teaching
excellence, but I just think, in general, it’s a very
exciting agenda. I just wonder if you could briefly tell the
committee whether that’s amongst your priorities driving
forward the physical literacy programme.
|
[83]
Kirsty Williams: Well, that, of course, will form part of
our development of Donaldson, ‘Successful Futures’ and
our new curriculum. One of the outcomes that we will expect of our
education is for healthy pupils with great well-being, and physical
literacy forms an important part of that. We will also be looking
at the areas of learning in experience about how we can give
good-quality provision to physical education activities in its
broader sense, and we are also refreshing and developing new
standards for a very exacting PE GCSE, actually. It’s either
this September that will start to be taught, or the following
September. So, there’ll be a strong emphasis in the new
curriculum around making sure our children, when they leave school,
are fit, healthy and understand those issues about how they can
keep that going for the rest of their lives.
|
[84]
Lynne Neagle: Thank you. Moving on, then, our next question
is from Michelle Brown.
|
[85]
Michelle Brown: I note from your paper that you want to
enhance the academic routes and vocational routes into further
education and higher education. Do you have any proposals for
helping mature students into vocational courses and academic
courses, particularly if they’re working perhaps on a low
income? Because it is quite difficult for them to actually
upskill.
|
[86]
Kirsty Williams: I think that’s a really important
point because much of the emphasis, sometimes, in our education
system is about young people and getting them skilled up for the
workforce of the future, but we actually need to look at the skills
levels of the people who we’ve got currently in the
workforce. One of the endemic problems of the Welsh
economy—one of the structural weaknesses we have in the Welsh
economy—is of a generally lower-skilled workforce than
perhaps you would find across the border in England and in
Scotland. So, how we can raise those skills is really important.
Outside my portfolio, the Government is working on its proposals
for the increase in the number of apprenticeships. Those
apprenticeships will be all-age because we have recognised that, in
the past, the restricting of apprenticeships to those of a younger
age group has cut people who are older, who are looking to change
their career, looking to upskill. We’ve cut them out of that
particular route. So, we’ll be looking to do what we can to
open up the apprenticeships.
|
[87]
As we look to future directions around how we plan work-based
learning and FE, this all forms part of the governance arrangements
with regard to Hazelkorn. We want a much more joined-up approach;
at the moment it’s very fragmented. As we look potentially to
reform the way in which we fund higher education, I would be
looking for opportunities there to support part-time students. We
already put a lot of money into the Open University via HEFCW for
part-time and more flexible study. I will be looking to see what we
can do to support part-timers going back into education.
|
[88]
Lynne Neagle: Thank you. Anyone else on this? No. Okay. If I
can just ask a question in relation to the section in your report
on surplus places, and I declare an interest as I’ve got two
schools that are going through closure processes at the moment.
You’ve said in your report about the importance of federation
and refer to the school organisation code. I just wondered if
you’ve got any plans to review the school closure process
that we now currently have, which is still very relatively new, and
whether you’ve got any plans to actually put some backbone on
the cause of federation, which at the moment is left to local
authorities.
|
10:15
|
[89]
Kirsty Williams: Thank you, Lynne. It is my intention to
review the school organisation code. I share your frustration; and
you and I have had conversations in the previous Assembly where
those frustrations have been very much the same about the status of
that code, how local authorities interpret that code and act
accordingly. So, we will be looking to review the code, looking to
see what we can do to strengthen that. As you will have heard from
me yesterday, I believe federation, in different forms, whether
that be high school to high school or clusters of primary schools,
or even perhaps a high school with feeder primary schools in a
particular catchment area, offers us a number of
opportunities—one, in driving up standards. We do know, from
looking at experience elsewhere that a high-performing school
working alongside, in the federation, perhaps a school that is
doing less well, can implant their leadership systems and help
bring the standards of that other school up. We also know that
there are potentially economies of scale, so if worries about
finance are driving change, there are economies of scale that can
be gained from federation. In some areas, federation means that we
can keep children within a community, which is often very much a
priority for people, both in urban areas and rural areas, keeping
children in their community. But that can be difficult sometimes in
terms of recruitment and retention of headteachers, therefore
actually being the head and executive head of a federation is a
very exciting prospect for a headteacher. It’s a big
challenge for them to take on, it’s the next step in their
career perhaps. So, actually, federation offers us benefits in lots
and lots and lots of different areas. It’s frustrating that,
to date, those opportunities haven’t been grasped. I’ll
be looking at interest at how local authorities in both urban and
rural parts of Wales are going to take this agenda forward in the
coming months and we will be putting a strong emphasis on local
authorities that federation provides really exciting opportunities
for raising educational standards, maintaining sustainability and,
in some areas, actually keeping an educational resource within a
community.
|
[90]
Lynne Neagle: Thank you. Darren Millar.
|
[91]
Darren Millar: I’m pleased to hear you reiterate some
of the comments you made yesterday about federation because I, too,
do believe that it is a solution that can be offered to many places
in terms of an alternative to closure. One of the other things,
Minister, that you referred to yesterday was your support for
‘through schools’ as an alternative as well, sometimes,
to closure and particularly in terms of keeping a local education
provision in a community when people are having to travel long
distances, perhaps, to secondary schools, in particular, at the
moment. Can you just tell us a little bit more about your vision
for ‘through schools’ and the opportunities that they
might present to some local authorities? I know there have been
some developments in west Wales. There’s a through school in
Denbighshire that is very successful as well. How do you see those
fitting in?
|
[92]
Kirsty Williams: Well, again, as I said yesterday, I am
looking at a range of governance models to be able to help us in
our drive to improve standards and I think in some locations,
‘through schools’, whether they be 3 to 16 or 3 to 18,
is a way in which we can do that. We can keep education within the
community but at the same time create a critical mass that actually
ensures that we’ve got the standards right as well, because
sometimes that can be a concern. I don’t want us to have to
make false choices between access and excellence, if you know what
I mean, from the old NHS discussions that we’ve had in the
past, Darren. So, ‘through schools’, I think, are an
important mix. I’m hoping to visit the through school in
Lampeter shortly. I’m hoping to officially open a through
school in September in west Wales. So, there are some really
exciting opportunities. It’s a relatively new
model—relatively—but I think, in some places, that will
be the solution to provide a really good education in some parts of
Wales. It won’t be suitable for everybody but it could well
be the solution for driving up standards and maintaining education
provision in some parts of Wales.
|
[93]
Darren Millar: Thanks.
|
[94]
Lynne Neagle: Llyr, on Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol.
|
[95]
Llyr Gruffydd:
Diolch yn fawr. Yn amlwg, rŷch
chi wedi ei gwneud yn glir eich bod chi yn edrych ar y posibilrwydd
do ehangu remit y Coleg Cymraeg i gynnwys addysg bellach.
Byddwn i jest yn licio clywed ychydig ynglŷn â’ch
gweledigaeth hirdymor chi ar gyfer y Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol,
oherwydd os ydym ni’n edrych ar ddatblygu darpariaeth addysg
bellach, er enghraifft, yn amlwg mae angen mwy na dwy neu dair
blynedd i ddechrau newid y diwylliant yna o gael pobl yn cymryd
cyrsiau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg ac yn y blaen. Hynny yw, ble ydych
chi’n gweld y Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol mewn pump neu 10
mlynedd, efallai? Un bach hawdd i ddechrau.
[Chwerthin.]
|
Llyr
Gruffydd: Clearly, you have made it clear that you’re
looking at the possibility of broadening the remit of the Coleg
Cymraeg to include further education. I just wanted to hear about
your long-term vision for the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, because
if you’re looking at developing further education provision,
obviously there needs to be more than two or three years to change
that culture of people taking courses through the medium of Welsh.
Where do you see the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol in five or 10
years? An easy one to begin. [Laughter.]
|
[96]
Kirsty Williams: Well,
firstly, can I say the Welsh Government has been putting in an
important level of resource, via HEFCW, to establishing the Coleg?
The Coleg is doing some fantastic work in terms of scholarship in
the Welsh medium in all sorts of ways—providing resources,
supporting, you know, access to provision, lectureships,
research—doing really, really, really important work.
It’s a relatively new concept, new institution, and as that
is bedding down and demonstrating an impact, and as we look to
respond to Hazelkorn, it seems to me that this is also the right
time to look at and to discuss with stakeholders whether we can
expand the remit of the Coleg to include FE. Because if we’re
looking to create a set-up that is more joined up between FE, HE
and work-based learning, it seems to me that we need to take the
language into consideration when we’re doing that. So, I
think this is timely and there is a synergy between looking at the
implementation of Hazelkorn and looking at the role of the college.
We do know, from Estyn reports and from studies, that Welsh-medium
provision in FE is not where we would want it to be. It’s
even more challenging in work-based learning. So, there is scope
for improvement, there’s the need for improvement, and I
think the Coleg is one way in which we can address that.
|
[97]
Llyr
Gruffydd: Rydych yn derbyn, felly, mewn egwyddor, er mwyn gweld y newid
y mae’r Llywodraeth eisiau ei weld o safbwynt y ddarpariaeth
sydd ar gael a’r niferoedd sy’n manteisio ar y
ddarpariaeth honno, fod angen ymrwymiad hirdymor yn hytrach na
mynd, efallai, o flwyddyn i flwyddyn neu ddwy i dair blynedd ar y
tro.
|
Llyr Gruffydd: You accept, therefore, in principle, in order to see
the change that the Government wants to see in terms of the
provision that’s available and the numbers that are taking
advantage of that provision, that there is a need for a long-term
commitment rather than going from year to year or every two or
three years.
|
[98]
Kirsty Williams:
Yes, I accept that. I appreciate that
being able to provide some certainty and that long-term vision and
commitment will have to go hand in hand. There’s no point
expanding the remit of an organisation unless we also give a very
clear commitment that that organisation will be there in the long
run, as long as it continues to do its job and demonstrate that
it’s making an impact.
|
[99]
Lynne Neagle: Hefin, on this, briefly.
|
[100]
Hefin David: I, again, declare an interest. Cardiff Met is a base
for Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol. Two of the staff were based there
and I had long conversations with them about the success. I feel
that Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol was one of the success stories of
the previous Assembly. So, I’d agree with Llyr about
that.
|
[101]
One of the reasons it was successful was
because it was able to build very good relationships with schools
such as Ysgol Gyfun Cwm Rhymni and those feeder schools then fed
into higher education. If we’re going to build FE, I think
we’ve got to continue to build those close relationships with
those schools, but also perhaps English-medium schools where there
are students studying Welsh-language qualifications as a second
language. There’s no reason why they couldn’t be
offered the same opportunities. So, I think, if it is going to be
successful at FE level, the links must go deeper and broader into
schools as well.
|
[102]
Kirsty Williams:
I couldn’t agree with you more. One
of the reasons why the Coleg has been successful, as you say, is
because it has developed those close relationships so that there is
a continuum. One of the challenges in providing really good,
high-quality, Welsh-medium education is that continuum, so that
parents, when they start that journey—and parents don’t
plan journeys in key stages—when they make that decision
about where they’re going to send their child to a nursery
provision, they’re doing so in the context of being able to
see that journey. One of the reasons why, potentially, people,
especially parents who are not Welsh speaking themselves, sometimes
maybe don’t start on that journey is because of a lack of
continuum. One of the real challenges we have is being able to have
a clear line of sight and therefore those linkages. We’re
never going to get people going in and studying at HE level or at
FE level unless those schoolchildren and their teachers are aware
of the opportunities and there is encouragement and there is
support and it’s not seen as something strange or something
unusual, but actually as a natural continuation. We don’t
think it’s strange for somebody to go from the cylch
into the ysgol Gymraeg, and then we don’t think
it’s strange that somebody then finishes at 11 and goes on to
study Welsh-medium at 11. Why would we suddenly think it was
strange for somebody to continue their education at 16 or 18 in
Welsh? We need to make it a part of the normal continuum for the
students.
|
[103]
Lynne Neagle: Really briefly, Llyr.
|
[104]
Llyr
Gruffydd: Mae cychwyn y siwrnai yna yn digwydd yn y blynyddoedd cynnar.
Onid felly yr oedd hi’n gamgymeriad i dorri nôl ar
ddarpariaeth Twf, yng ngogledd Cymru yn sicr, oherwydd rŷm ni
wedi mynd o ddarpariaeth ym mhob sir nawr i fod â darpariaeth
dim ond mewn un canolfan yn y gogledd? Felly, bydd llai o bobl yn
cychwyn ar y siwrnai hynny ac onid oedd hynny felly’n
benderfyniad anghywir, neu’n gam gwag?
|
Llyr Gruffydd:
The beginning of that journey takes place in the early years.
Wasn’t it a mistake, therefore, to cut back on the Twf
provision, in north Wales certainly, because we have gone from
having provision in every county to having provision in only one
centre in north Wales? So, there will be fewer people starting on
that journey and wasn’t that, therefore, the incorrect
decision?
|
[105] Kirsty Williams: But, Llyr, there is money going in to promoting the
opportunities of Welsh medium at every level. So, for instance,
there are information packs and support available, even for
midwives. When your baby is born, and you get the red
book—you’ll know the red book better than anybody;
you’ve got four of them—and you’re given that red
book by your midwife and your health visitor, there will be
information contained within the red book about making a positive
choice and the opportunities. So, times are tough, and if we had
all the money in the world, maybe some of those decisions would be
different decisions. But it is not true to say that we are not
taking the opportunity to promote people making a positive choice
for pursuing Welsh-medium education for their children at the
earliest stage. Even before they’re born, parents are being
given information about the opportunities for Welsh-medium
education.
|
[106] Lynne
Neagle: Thank you. Oscar on the links between education and
industry. Brief question, please.
|
[107] Mohammad
Ashgar: Thank you very much, Chair. Kirsty, I think
you’ve already touched on industry and education and
universities. This EU referendum has made things, maybe in future
funding, a bit constrained for our innovation and entrepreneurship
in the universities. So, have you any forward plan for those sorts
of scenarios that we will face in future?
|
[108] Kirsty
Williams: The impact of the referendum, and the decision to
leave the European Union, will impact upon education in Wales in
many, many ways, and probably in many ways that people are simply
not aware of. In particular, you are quite right to say that the
impact will be felt greatest in the university sector. Many of the
programmes that we run in terms of innovation and the connections
between HE and the world of industry, and many of our FE
programmes, have traditionally been supported by European funds.
Even in our primary schools, the cost of providing free milk for
our youngest children has been predominantly paid for by a grant
from the European Union. I have an MA in front of me on my desk
upstairs, which would have expected a significant amount of money,
match funded by the Welsh Government, to train our teachers in
coding, and to provide coding workshops for our children. The
anticipation was that that would be match funded by the European
Union, and I’m having to hold back because I simply do not
know whether it’s worth starting a programme now, and
spending that money now, if we can’t have any guarantees. So,
the impact is huge, but particularly huge on the HE sector.
|
[109] I’ve had
early conversations with the University of Wales. I am setting up a
standing group to advise me, that will then advise the negotiating
team that the First Minister has set up in Brussels, to look at the
impact of Brexit on the university sector. We’ll be keeping
on close working terms with the university sector, and the FE
sector, to analyse the impact; to look at the threats; to look at
opportunities, if they exist, although I tell you I can’t
find many of them at the moment; and to be able to negate any
risks, because, for some of our universities, they are highly
exposed to the European student market. So, for some universities,
this is a big, big challenge moving forward.
|
[110] Lynne
Neagle: Okay, thank you. Thank you for that, and we will be
returning to that issue as a committee. I’ve just got a very
brief question on Schools Challenge Cymru. A lot of us have seen
benefits from that operating in our areas. It’s a
time-limited programme at the moment; have you got plans to extend
it?
|
[111] Kirsty
Williams: What I have got plans to do is look at the
evaluation. So, as you said, the programme is a time-limited
programme. Just like we keep an eye on the impact of PDG,
we’ve asked for independent research to be done to look at
the impact of the Schools Challenge programme system. Once that
evaluation has been received and looked at, then I’ll be
making a decision and an announcement on the future of the
programme.
|
[112] Lynne
Neagle: Thank you. Can I ask if that could maybe be shared with
the committee?
|
[113] Kirsty
Williams: Oh yes, of course. That’s no problem at
all.
|
[114] Lynne
Neagle: Thank you. And a final question then on youth work from
Llyr.
|
[115] Llyr
Gruffydd: Thank you very much, Chair. I’m just wondering
what your vision is for youth services in Wales, because I’ve
seen some statistics that suggest that a lot of the money
that’s being allocated through the revenue support grant and
the core youth service budget isn’t actually being spent by
local authorities on youth services. I think over a quarter, from
the figures I’ve seen, in 2014-15, wasn’t spent on
youth service. So, I’m just wondering whether that’s
acceptable. And, there’s huge disparity. If you look at each
individual local authority, some are spending less than a third of
the money that they’re receiving for those purposes; others
are spending more than 100 per cent.
|
10:30
|
[116]
So, there is, effectively, a youth
service postcode lottery out there in terms of the services that
young people can access. So, I’m just wondering how you
intend to move the youth service forward and what structure you
have in mind in terms of delivering the Wales charter for youth
work because the question that I’m being asked by a lot of
people out there is: who is driving the youth service
today?
|
[117]
Kirsty Williams:
Thank you for that. If I’m honest
with you, Llyr, that is not something that I have addressed to date
within the portfolio, so I’m happy to be able to send you a
note on it. What we do know is that experiences outside of the
classroom are absolutely vital to children in ensuring that they
have the broadest opportunity. You will be aware that the previous
administration was very keen to look at an extended offer for
children in terms of extra-curricular activities, whether that be
in traditional youth club—you and I would both have a
commitment to the opportunities afforded by the young farmers
movement, for instance—whether that be sporting clubs,
theatre groups or music classes. We want our children to have the
widest possible opportunities. Not all of that can be catered for
in the traditional 9 a.m. until 3.30 p.m. school day. So, youth
work is an important part of that and I will ask officials to send
you a note because I have to admit that, with everything that
I’ve had to get to grips with in the first five or six weeks,
that’s not something that I’ve turned my attention to
yet. But I’ll be looking to work with my Cabinet colleague,
the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, on what we can
do to ensure that there is adequate and good provision. Owen, maybe
you’ve got more to say.
|
[118]
Mr Evans: Just a couple words on it: we do monitor things like
statistics on those who are not in education, employment or
training, pretty hotly, as you can imagine. We’ve seen some
quite good gains over the past few years on the number of people
who are leaving schools and who are not in education, employment or
training. The youth service is part of that. The work that the
youth service has done, the work that Careers Wales have done and
the work that colleges have done and the work of a number of
services that local authorities provide have contributed to that.
We’ll be monitoring very closely to see if there’s a
drop-off in the performance that we’ve had on reducing the
number of NEETs, and the youth service is part of that. We do keep
it under consideration.
|
[119]
Llyr Gruffydd: My concern is that we don’t have a truly
national youth service because of this disparity that exists and
some young people in some parts of Wales are not being given access
to the services that they should have, whereas in other areas, of
course, young people can access those services.
|
[120]
Kirsty Williams:
I take your point and it’s an
important point and we will look into it for you.
|
[121]
Lynne Neagle: Thank you. Okay, that’s the last of the
questions. Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for attending this
morning, and her officials? I think it’s been a really
informative session and we look forward to continuing our dialogue
with you in the months ahead. As you know, you will be sent a draft
of the transcript for the meeting to check for accuracy after the
meeting. But thank you very much for coming. The committee will now
break until 10:40.
|
[122]
Kirsty Williams:
Thank you very much.
|
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:33 a 10:42.
The meeting adjourned between 10:33 and 10:42.
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Ysgrifennydd y
Cabinet dros Gymunedau a Phlant: Trafod Blaenoriaethau’r
Portffolio Cabinet Secretary for Communities and
Children—Discussion on Portfolio Priorities
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[123]
Lynne Neagle: Okay, we’ll reconvene then. Can I welcome Carl
Sargeant, the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, to
our meeting this morning? Thank you for providing a paper in
advance. We’re looking forward to having a discussion with
you about that this morning. Could I ask you to just introduce your
officials for the record and then to make some opening remarks,
please?
|
[124]
The Cabinet Secretary for Communities
and Children (Carl Sargeant): Of course. Good morning, Chair. Good morning,
committee. Thank you for the opportunity to be with you this
morning. Jo-Anne, could you start?
|
[125]
Ms Daniels: I’m Jo-Anne Daniels, I’m the director
with responsibility for communities and tackling
poverty.
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[126]
Carl Sargeant: Albert.
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[127]
Mr Heaney: Good morning, I’m Albert Heaney, the director
for social services and integration.
|
[128]
Carl Sargeant: Chair, thank you for the opportunity to come to
committee and early on in the session, actually. I am very
grateful, actually. I’m really excited about this new
portfolio and the opportunities we have in working with you over
the coming months and years, hopefully.
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[129]
I issued a briefing paper for committee,
but I wanted to come today just to tell you about the themes of my
department. It’s quite a wide-ranging department, as most of
the Cabinet Secretary positions are now. The children and young
people brief covers from housing to community safety to children. I
think it’s a really great synergy that we can start to build
across the unit. I’ve tasked my department with looking at
some common themes about what’s our objective in terms of
delivering for Government and for communities across
Wales.
|
[130]
The two areas I’ve asked them to
focus on are economic regeneration, being one of the key themes,
and the other area is about well-being, and particularly issues
around tackling adverse childhood experiences. I believe that those
two areas are something where we can have a direct impact on
communities and individuals’ lives, which will have a huge
difference long term. I think the WFG Act that we introduced in
Government last year is a good example of planning for the long
term and the preventative approach, and I think Government
departments should act upon it, and that’s what’s key
to my unit.
|
[131]
The overall goal for me is making sure
that, for young people in Wales, all children have the best
possible start in life. That’s a real challenge for us
all—to make sure that we give opportunities—which I
hope we share in terms of the non-partisan approach to looking
after young people.
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10:45
|
[132]
On specific priorities of that, I
want to promote children’s well-being; I want to promote
their physical, intellectual, emotional, social and behavioural
opportunities and their welfare, and to foster the economic renewal
and regeneration and growth opportunities, which I said in my
opening remarks. The Government’s child poverty strategy is
something that we are seeking to refresh in line with the overall
poverty strategy. We have to think about our levers in Wales and
what we have and the levers that we don’t, and the issues
around Europe or whether that be UK Government
interventions—the things that we can’t and don’t
have control of. What are our mitigating circumstances and the
things that we are able to achieve? So, I’m looking very
closely, with the challenges that face us, about how we can make
the best of the financial settlement we have in order to do
that.
|
[133] Of course, the
work is encompassed by the legislation around the WFG Act and we
will continue to do that. I think it sets us on an international
footing about opportunity. We are well placed across the globe in
doing something very different, building sustainable development in
the heart of decision making. I will be pushing that through my
department very hard, but also our partners. I’ve already met
with many stakeholders, externally, saying, ‘If you want to
do business with us, then, you have to use the same principles and
adopt the same principles of planning for the long term
too’.
|
[134] In terms of
areas I’m sure you’ll be very interested in, there are
our manifesto commitments around a better deal on childcare, Flying
Start, Families First, looked-after children—I know we had a
debate in the Chamber only last week, which was very positive and
supported by many of the parties that have the same principled
approach that we seek to take—children’s rights and
participation and the issues around bringing forward legislation to
remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, which is another
area of important work that my department will be taking forward
this year.
|
[135] I’ve got
many more things to say, Chair; I’m sure I could keep talking
for this session, but I’m sure you may have some questions as
well, and that you might want to delve deeper into some of my
initial thoughts.
|
[136] Lynne
Neagle: Okay. Thank you very much for those introductory
remarks. We’ll take questions now from Members. I’ve
got Julie Morgan first on childcare.
|
[137] Julie
Morgan: Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you, Cabinet
Secretary, for your introduction. Obviously, the pledge on
childcare—the delivery of 30 hours a week, 48 weeks of the
year—is a very ambitious pledge and really very positive, I
think, for parents, and I know it’s supported by a number of
parties. I wondered if you could tell us how you’re going to
set about doing the preparatory work for introducing something that
I think is probably quite a complicated area.
|
[138] Carl
Sargeant: Thank you, Julie, for your question. I think it would
be fair to say that the majority of political parties had some
childcare pledge in their manifestos leading up to the election.
The civil service were very nimble, actually, because they were
already starting to think about opportunities and intervention and
how delivery could take place in regard to any particular party
winning that proposal. It was always going to be a challenge.
Notwithstanding the proposals that we’ve put through our
manifesto—30 hours a week for 48 weeks for working parents of
three and four-year-olds is a huge challenge, but a huge
opportunity for that economic stimulus, but also the quality
childcare that we seek to deliver over the coming years.
|
[139] In terms of
pathway, I think we are starting to learn from the work that was
started by the civil service prior to the election in May.
I’ve picked up that piece of work now and started to look at
how we are talking to the sector. We’ve had initial
discussions with those and I’m very keen that we actually
talk to parents. I think that’s the key element here for
moving from the 10 or 12 hours of foundation phase up to the 30
hours. It’s going to be an important part of linking that
process so that it’s a smooth process; a smooth transition
into what that looks like. So, we’re starting some focus
groups with parents as well. We’re going to be starting a
social media programme on—I can’t remember the name,
Jo-Anne, but—
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[140] Ms
Daniels: Talk Childcare.
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[141] Carl
Sargeant: Talk Childcare, which is very apt. We’re going
to kick that off very shortly. We’re just trying to get the
Mumsnet side and fathers’ interest in how this is going to
operate. I’m hoping, in practical terms, that we can start
some pathfinder programmes towards the end of next
year—2017—then we’ll start to roll that out. The
problem with this is capacity. The sector has to grow, and
they’re very keen to grow with us, but it’s not a
light-bulb moment; we have to build this in. We’re learning
an awful lot, actually, because there was a difficult report from
the Public Accounts Committee in England around Westminster when
they tried to introduce this programme. Helpfully, it’s given
us some of the pitfalls that we hopefully won’t fall into.
So, we’re learning a lot. It’s a very complex
programme. How we get to that space is something that I’d
like to keep the committee and the Chamber updated on, but our
intent and timeline is to start rolling out the programme towards
the end of next year.
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[142]
Julie Morgan: One of the key things that parents tell me is that
they’re looking for flexibility to suit their complicated
arrangements. Is that something that you’re bearing in
mind?
|
[143]
Carl Sargeant: It is, and this is just one of the complex issues
that—. We’re trying to get away from the very personal
interventions of the here and now, because people will tell me,
‘I start work at 7 o’clock in the morning, I need
childcare then’, but actually, we’ve got to look at a
much broader way of how this may or may not operate. So, whether
that’s a mixture between public and private sector
deliverers, how that may work with vouchers or not, what will be
the process for securing childcare, how will we measure that, who
will be eligible for it—we know who should be eligible, but
how are we going to do that? So, these are processes that
we’re working through now. It is extremely complex and the
team are working very hard to do that, but I am confident we can,
and the sector is, as I said, very keen to engage. But for me, part
of the WFG Act, as well, is making sure that we have social
interaction about the people that this matters to. So, parents who
have experienced this or are due to experience this: what’s
their real life experience? Because governments can make
programmes, but it doesn’t always fit the person. So
we’re hoping to get a people-focused delivery session on
this, and as I’ve said, we’ve already started some
focus groups, one in Welsh Government, one in a large
private-sector company, with parents who are in the childcare
movement already. It’s really important for me to listen to
parents on this.
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[144]
Lynne Neagle: Oscar.
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[145]
Mohammad Asghar:
Thank you very much, Chair, and thank
you, Carl, Cabinet Secretary, for this on childcare—it is a
very important part of the whole affair. My point is that you have
already pledged—I think you have said that work is under way,
and that pledges are going to be mentioned in detail shortly. The
fact is that the Scandinavians are miles ahead of us. You said
it’s a very difficult area, but what about Scotland and even
Northern Ireland, and your counterparts? Have you had some sort of
understanding? It’s very complicated, yes, but certain
countries have gone much further than us, so your knowledge and
information and all of those areas—have you covered that with
them to make sure that we compete with them, or go ahead of
them?
|
[146]
Carl Sargeant: Yes, my team have been working, as I said earlier,
prior to the election, and have engaged with other countries, but
also other areas in the UK. This is by far the largest childcare
pledge anywhere in the UK, when this will happen, and we are
learning from other people’s mistakes. Fortunately for us,
there are people that have led the path on this, and as I said,
there was a PAC report about a month back that highlighted some of
the issues, particularly in—I think it was
Yorkshire—where they piloted some of these schemes already.
One of the issues was the rate of childcare, so, the value for
this, because some providers use government schemes for elements of
the day but top up with the parents, with additionality. The
problem with this scheme is that the government scheme would be
most of the day, so they couldn’t top up with additionality
from parents. So, the value of the unit was very important to them,
and making sure that they could make it sustainable, and
that’s something that we want to make sure we’ve got
our eyes fully open for when we enter into these negotiations.
That’s why the sectoral approach and the parent approach is
going to be really important. But we are learning from other
countries, and yes, of course, some of the Scandinavian countries
have had very different models of childcare and education systems
in the past, but we are learning from that, too. I would say that
there are things that we are doing in this country where other
countries look upon us as good practice, too. I’m not
embarrassed by any means, or shy, to learn from other
experiences.
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[147]
Lynne Neagle: Thank you. Llyr then Darren.
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[148] Llyr Gruffydd: Thank you, Chair. You’ve mentioned the word
‘quality’ in relation to childcare, and you and the
First Minister previously have said that you want to provide
quality childcare with equitable access across all parts of Wales.
I’m just wondering whether you could define what your
understanding of ‘quality’ is in this
context.
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[149] Carl
Sargeant: It’s a really difficult question, and I
don’t think I can fully answer it, if I’m being honest
with you, but what I think I mean by that is—the simple way
to do this was provide some vouchers to parents and say, ‘Go
and find some childcare,’ and that would suffice,
technically, on that. I’ve been very keen to say to my team
that isn’t acceptable to me, nor to the First Minister, and
what we’re looking for is the childcare plus scenario. I
think foundation phase has been a remarkable success, in many
cases, for our young people in Wales. What I’d like to do is
to ensure that the experience of young people isn’t a place
where we just park them for some time for the economic benefit of
the parent. I want to make sure that the living experience for the
child is something through which we can help them grow and succeed
in life too. So, I don’t know—I can’t define what
the quality aspect is, but I think it’s more than the normal
of parking a child somewhere safe. It’s got to be more than
that.
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[150] I’m
working also with the children’s commissioner and the
well-being of future generations commissioner to look at a deep
dive into childcare and into early years to see what that
means—the synergies between programmes are going to be really
important too. So, where do we add value in areas, what can we
learn from that best practice and how can we support young people
in this proposal? So, I’m sorry I can’t be definitive
in that answer, but I hope that you get a feeling of what I want
and what I’m seeking to do.
|
[151] Llyr
Gruffydd: Because another aspect—and there’s a lot
of international evidence that shows that it’s the quality of
the workforce as well that can have a key, key bearing on the
outcomes that young people have from childcare—is that the
evidence points to the value of having graduate-level practitioners
working with children. So, I’m just wondering how
you’re going to ensure that we have that quality level of
provision accessible across Wales.
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[152] Carl
Sargeant: What I’ve already started talking about with
the skills Minister, and you’ll note that, in the First
Minister’s session yesterday in the Chamber, where he was
unable at that point to issue a statement on the programme for
government because of the financial aspects we find ourselves in
following the Brexit campaign—. A lot of the training
programmes that we have across Wales are based on European support,
and that’s something that the sector and we are concerned
about, because making sure we’ve got the capacity with the
sector to take this forward—. I agree with the Member that
the quality of the childcare is based around the quality of the
service provided. While we have safe, good childcare facilities
across Wales that have been inspected, I think we can add value to
all of that by the quality of the people in those settings. We have
to try to professionalise this whole process. It’s something
that the skills Minister is very keen to work on as well.
|
[153] So, as I said
earlier, this isn’t just about a childcare pledge; we can
think of the huge opportunities that this will bring in terms of
employment and community regeneration opportunities. There are so
many attachments to just this single pledge that, potentially, will
have great success across all of Wales, and it’s something I
know the Member would share.
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[154] Llyr
Gruffydd: I agree with the comment about professionalising, or,
at least, that upgrading skills within the workforce is key in that
respect. So, with that in mind, can you maybe update us on
timescales for publication of the 10-year early years and childcare
workforce plan and commitments to improve quality standards in the
workforce? Where are we with that?
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[155] Carl
Sargeant: We are developing the 10-year plan. I can’t
give you the date of issue. The progress of the success is being
developed to support the ambition of the 10-year programme.
Financial support provided will enable the existing workforce to
upskill from levels 2 to 6, so we are in that process. Perhaps I
can write to the committee with a note on the detail of that.
I’m not sighted on that.
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[156] Lynne
Neagle: Darren.
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[157] Darren
Millar: Yes, I just wanted to ask, in terms of the childcare
pledge, what consideration you have given to the use of extended
families to provide that childcare—grandparents or other
trusted people around the families who might want to take advantage
of this increased childcare pledge. A lot of people would
appreciate some income for the informal childcare that they already
bring to the table, and I’m just wondering to what extent
you’ve thought about that as a Government.
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[158] Carl
Sargeant: We haven’t thought about those being providers,
but what we have thought about is actually their skill and
judgment, because lots of trusted family members—generally,
grandparents who look after children—have got a great
knowledge about their young people and what the timescale, et
cetera, is. So, the focus groups are not including just parents,
but people who know about this and have real-life experience. So,
we are seeking the views of trusted grandparents in shaping our
policy agenda.
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11:00
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[159] I haven’t
given any thought about specifically funding smaller units, because
of the capacity issue on this. We are looking at a very big
programme here, but I’m not saying that we shouldn’t
look at that, and I will give it some thought. We’re
developing this programme from scratch, and I’m not writing
anything off yet, but what I do need to be very clear about is that
I need to get this programme running as soon as possible, because,
while lots of people are very positive about it, it will only be
positive if we deliver it. That’s why, by the end of next
year, I’ve tasked my team—or earlier—. I want to
see this starting to roll out next year.
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[160] Darren
Millar: I suspect this is one way, potentially, to rapidly
expand capacity, and probably at a lesser cost, if trusted family
members were able to be paid for bringing some childcare to other
family members. Of course, if you asked most parents, a lot of them
would rather leave their child with a grandparent or another
trusted family member than at some nursery down the road.
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[161] Carl
Sargeant: Of course. I’ll be very careful how I say this,
but I think what Llyr’s point was, and I share it, was about
the quality of childcare and what that looks like. I’m not
suggesting for a moment that being with grandparents isn’t a
good experience for the child, but the educational value,
sometimes, could be enhanced by a different setting. So, cautiously
I’m saying that, but I’m not saying I’m writing
it off either. I think we’ve got to consider all options
here. I’m very keen that I have a project that can deliver
our manifesto commitment, which is a very challenging one, but
I’m confident that we can do that.
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[162] Lynne Neagle: John, on this, then.
|
[163]
John Griffiths:
I was going to move on to Flying Start,
actually, Chair.
|
[164]
Lynne Neagle: Okay, that’s fine. We can go on to Flying
Start, then.
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[165]
John Griffiths:
Okay. I take your point about the
well-being of future generations Act, and it’s important for
the preventative agenda and the long-term view, and I think
there’s a lot of evidence that the first 1,000 days of a
human life are extremely important for life chances and future
development. So, I wonder if you could say a little bit about
Flying Start and the expansion of Flying Start, and whether
we’re on track in terms of increasing the numbers benefiting
from the scheme.
|
[166]
Carl Sargeant: I don’t suppose the committee heard, as
you’ve been sitting this morning, but the Flying Start
statistics were out this morning, at 9.25 a.m., I think, and
I’m pleased that I can come to committee and tell you the
stats. We doubled the programme, as we said we would, prior to the
end date in 2016, and we’ve increased that as well. So,
we’re up to 38,000 activity interventions with Flying Start.
It’s an incredible programme, and they work extremely hard in
communities, making sure that there is positive intervention with
families and children. It’s something I’m very keen to
pursue for the future, too.
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[167]
I think, in terms of where that sits now,
and this goes back to my initial point about what the department
stands for, we have Flying Start, Families First, Communities
First, the childcare pledge, early years; how do we make sure that
these all fit and integrate with each other? I’ve started
making sure that we can operate horizontally better, but also with
a common objective of well-being and regeneration.
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[168] The 1,000-day programme is something I am absolutely
committed to, to make sure that we have early years at the centre
of intervention for this department’s Government policy,
because if we get the early years right, and the prevention agenda
right, it’s something that we will reap benefits from in the
longer term. It’s not just morally right, but it’s
actually financially the right thing to do, because public bodies,
longer term, will not have to make longer term interventions. So,
the 1,000 days, the issue around ACEs, which I touched on earlier
on—the adverse childhood experiences—I would urge the
committee to look at that very carefully, because I think there is
something in that that actually will change the way that structures
of communities will operate. We can actually do something about
these things. So, I’m linking in what Flying Start
does and the other intervention programmes, and I will be making a
statement probably in the autumn about what the future of these
programmes looks like, how they will interlink with each other
better and how we can have a long-term vision for children from
pre-birth to when they leave into the adult system, so that it is
as flexible and supportive as possible.
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[169] John
Griffiths: Could I just ask about early language acquisition
because, again, that’s very important for life chances and
general education experience and attainment? In terms of the
linkages, Flying Start is important—we’ve got language
and play—but obviously other Ministers have important
responsibilities as well. We know that, at age five, children in
persistent poverty are twice as likely to score below average for
language acquisition as their better-off peers. And there’s a
strong campaign that talks about the quality of the early years
workforce, which you’ve already touched on—support for
parents and leadership—as being crucial to addressing these
issues, particularly for the more deprived children. So, I wonder
if you could just say a little bit about those linkages that you
mentioned in terms of tackling these problems.
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[170] Carl
Sargeant: Again, I know he is a champion for this, and
it’s something that I’ve started. It’s a really
interesting discussion we’re having on the fifth floor now
with the leads in the departments of Alun Davies or Kirsty Williams, who have already started discussing
issues beyond education. I talked about the very tragic case
yesterday of the young boy who lost his life. Actually, our
approach needs to be more holistic and family-centred—what
that means for the growth of the young person, so not just about
the parent or just the young person, but also what’s the
family unit and how do we support those? That’s why the
Families First and Flying Start programmes have really deep
intervention processes. I think, while there is an ethos of family
support there, sometimes it’s about confidence and
opportunity, and then we have to build in the security of the
educational value to the family and to the young person as well.
It’s something I’ve started to discuss with Kirsty
Williams and with Alun Davies in terms of how we get in that early
identification and then action around that. So, the language
element of this is something that I am aware of, and certainly my
colleagues are too, and we’ll be looking at that very
closely.
|
[171] Lynne
Neagle: Thank you. We’ll move on now then to looked-after
children. Michelle Brown.
|
[172] Michelle
Brown: Thank you, Chair. I just had a very quick question,
actually—I’m sure you’ll be quite pleased. I just
wondered what measures you’re thinking about putting into
place to provide support for looked-after children after they
actually leave care. What proposals have you considered so far to
try and up their educational attainment while they’re in
care? Because, I mean, obviously, children in care are lacking a
very, very key thing, which is parental interest, and they’re
lost in so many other ways.
|
[173] Carl
Sargeant: I’m quite a robust person, but some of these
things really worry me and they dearly touch my heart strings in
terms of what we are doing here with young people and how we are
able to support them in the longer term. Looked-after children is
one of those areas. I am quite pleased that the attainment rate
has—. Well, the attainment rate for looked-after children is
low, but it’s increasing consistently with the attainment
rate of people not in care. So, it is on the way up but
there’s still a gap and that’s not acceptable. So, what
do we do to do that? I met with the skills Minister on Monday to
talk about how we support young people in that setting at an
earlier age. There’s a programme operating—I think
it’s operating in Cardiff, actually, at the moment on a trial
basis—where we are looking to support people with additional
needs at the age of 40 [correction:
4], actually; getting in very early to say, ‘Look,
sometimes we leave the system, it’s not perhaps the right
system to be in, but actually we shouldn’t leave you; what
more can we do to support you, particularly on education?’
The five GCSE measure for looked-after children is very low.
I’m not yet convinced myself that we should be measuring
children just on their attainment of five GCSEs. Actually, these
young people have got some very deep-rooted issues other than five
GCSEs, and I think this is where I go back to the issue around how
we protect these individuals at an early age. We’re sort of
on the treadmill of people in the system. What we’ve got to
do is try to prevent people getting into the system as well. And
that’s why the focus on tackling issues around domestic
violence, alcohol abuse, substance misuse, family break-ups,
parenting support—all of these things are part of our
community make-up. These ACEs that people experience; if you stack
ACEs up—. I’ll give you one example. I’ll stop
going on about it in a minute, Chair, but, if a young person
experiences five or more ACEs, so has seen some drug or alcohol
misuse, some arrests within the family, a family break-up, et
cetera—if you stack five ACEs up through their
lifetime—they are 20 times more likely to be incarcerated and
16 times more likely to be assaulted in life. If we can start
reducing the number of ACEs—and we can—we can change
communities; we can change people’s opportunities. And I
think the public health document that Public Health Wales
did—they’ve done this on ACE actions, and also ACE in
mental health, and the statistics around them are significant. And,
I think, as a department, my focus has got to be on something like
that.
|
[174] So, I think,
Michelle, your question around what we do specifically for
looked-after children, we’re on the treadmill and we’re
trying to help and support that cohort, and Albert and his team are
working with the skills Minister currently to try and enable them
for a longer-term support in life. But we have to get in much
earlier in our young people’s lives to say, ‘Things are
going wrong here; how can we protect them from getting in the
system in the first place?’
|
[175] Michelle
Brown: Thank you.
|
[176] Lynne
Neagle: I’ve got a question on looked-after children as
well. This sits in your portfolio, but a lot of the legislation is
in the Minister for Social Services’ portfolio, including the
new Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. And one of the
concerns that’s been raised regularly, as good as the Act is,
is that, obviously, it’s more focused on adults. It’s
removed some of the child-centred legislation, and I just wondered
how you are going to ensure that there is an effective partnership,
really, and also how we are going to retain the focus on children
with the legislation sitting in a different portfolio.
|
[177] Carl
Sargeant: Can I start by saying, first of all, Albert works
between myself and the health and social services Minister too? So,
we’ve got consistency in terms of staffing and regulation and
policy, and his team works very closely with us. Can I also give
you confidence, in terms of the Social Services and Well-being
(Wales) Act 2014, that, in terms of well-being, it does cover
children as well, and it’s something that I’m very keen
to ensure we don’t lose sight of, or that people are under
any illusion that it doesn’t? Yesterday’s discussion
highlighted the fact that I’m very keen to do that. I’m
writing now to safeguarding boards across Wales around these issues
particularly.
|
[178] What Rebecca
Evans and myself have already discussed is about making sure that
there aren’t any gaps in the system, who looks after who and
where, and there is a fall-back position that I will take
responsibility around safeguarding in general. Rebecca obviously
deals with adults, but, if there is any doubt in the procedure, it
will be my responsibility, and that’s where we—. So
there’s no significant demarcation—any doubt, then it
will fall within my department. I don’t know whether Albert
can add any value to the question that the Chair offered.
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[179] Mr
Heaney: Thank you, Minister. The Act actually is about children
and adults—so, again, that reassurance. Part 6 of the Act
around looked-after children really strengthens our
responsibilities, and the codes have brought together some of the
critical learning that we have had around children’s
experiences, both in the care system, but also when they leave the
care system. And the emphasis is to strengthen and improve. So, if
we look at the care leaver experience, in Part 6, in the codes, it
is strengthening the relationship between housing, children’s
services, and other partners to ensure that there’s
stability, so that young people, when they leave the care system,
then they have education, they have employment, but they have
secure housing. So, it’s actually been addressing some of the
thorny issues, such as bed and breakfast use as accommodation, and
those have been directly tackled.
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[180] The Minister has
set up under the legislation an improving outcomes for looked-after
children group. Phase 1 of that work has been completed. Indeed, in
terms of partnership, the vice chair of that group was a young
person, Dan Pitt, who did an excellent job through that—so,
again, at the heart of leading and developing leaders of the
future. But, directly, the work that is now taking place from that
is that the Minister has agreed to go into a phase 2 and, in phase
2, we will be looking directly at the early interventions and at
the prevention to ensure that children and young people get the
services that they need.
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11:15
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[181] In relation to
education, Welsh Government has, at the beginning of this year, of
course, launched its new strategy in relation to aspirations or
ambitions— lifting our ambition and looking at how we improve
the educational attainment of looked-after children. And, indeed,
emerging reports—there’s the Estyn report just recently
this month, which has been published in relation to good practice
around looked-after children, and what that shows is that in some
places across Wales, we’ve got some really good practice
taking place. And what our job is is to make sure now that we have
that good practice everywhere throughout Wales and that we close
the gap between the attainment level of looked-after children and
of all children in Wales.
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[182]
Lynne Neagle: Okay, thank you. On this, Julie.
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[183]
Julie Morgan: Yes, very quickly, Albert mentioned the vice-chair,
who was a young person, of this group, but what plans do you have
to directly engage with care leavers and young people in care to
get the direct feedback?
|
[184]
Carl Sargeant: Indeed, and Albert mentioned the issue of the second
phase of the group and I’m looking at the refresh of that
programme to make sure—. It really is important to me, and
I’ve had some robust discussions with my team about how our
engagement processes operate within the Government and civil
service. I am absolutely focused on real-life experiences—I
want to understand. And whether that’s domestic violence or
homelessness or indeed looked-after children, we must get the
real-life experience, because expert advice is valued, but,
actually, real-life experience is incredibly important too.
That’s why the WFG Act says about how do we ensure we
have—. For me to comply as a Minister, and for us to comply
as Government, we must have engagement. I’m very keen to
ensure that the young person’s voice is part of that feed-in
in that section. It’s not just about paying lip service to
that, but about actually doing something with that information as
well. So, all my policies will be people-centred and, particularly,
because this department is for children, there will be a lot of
children’s voices heard. I suppose that leads on to some of
the other activities around the Funky Dragon campaign, et cetera,
that are out there and other children’s community groups; the
voices of those young people are really important to me. I hope
that the Member will realise that I’m not just saying that;
it actually is, and I think that we can inform better Government
policy if we actually listen to people.
|
[185]
Lynne Neagle: Okay, thank you. Okay. We’ll move on now, then,
to welfare reform. Hefin David.
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[186]
Hefin David: In your submission to the committee—the
statement about mitigating the effects of welfare reform—it
seems fairly clear that tax and benefit reforms are going to have a
consequence on child poverty, and will increase child poverty in
your view. A number of providers have emerged, such as the Trussell
Trust, which is providing foodbanks but also now moving into more
than food programmes. How do you intend to work with the third
sector and these kind of providers to mitigate the effects of
benefit reforms?
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[187]
Carl Sargeant: Within the department, I also look after the
voluntary sector too; the list is endless, it appears. I’ve
met with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action on these issues and
these are historic. Leighton Andrews led on it previously in terms
of the relationship between our partners’ advice services,
which are critical, and our support mechanisms. But, look,
I’ll be perfectly honest with you: what I don’t have is
finance. I cannot mitigate some of the actions that are levers from
other Governments. Respectfully, Governments make decisions, but
they have consequences too. Unfortunately, we’re on the wrong
side of that because these things are happening, they’re
being done, and that is the democratic choice of people. The
Governments make those decisions. I may not like them, but
that’s how it is. What I can do is look at the programme of
interventions that we do have and that’s why I said early on
that I’ve got to review the whole of my department about what
do they do—where are we touching people on the
ground?
|
[188] That’s why
Communities First, Families First, Flying Start are all important
parts of my division, which actually are in the front end of some
of our more troubled, deprived, at-risk communities. So, I’m
looking at how do they operate, what can they do; some of our
voluntary sector programmes that we support, some of the ones that
we don’t—what’s our relationship with
those—and trying to get a more joined-up programme, because
we can’t afford repetition, duplication. We have to have a
single point where people who do these interventions well, we can
support them if we can, and, if we can’t support them
financially, how can we help them on their journey? People like the
Trussell Trust and many others—Citizens Advice, et
cetera—are at the front end of this. We couldn’t do our
job of community resilience without them.
|
[189] Lynne
Neagle: Thank you. We move on now then to legislation related
to the removal of the defence of reasonable chastisement.
Julie.
|
[190] Julie
Morgan: Thank you, Chair. I wondered if you could tell us the
timetable for this proposal and how you are preparing for it.
|
[191] Carl
Sargeant: Well, the First Minister will obviously make some
further decisions on that, but we are seeking to introduce that
into the second year of the programme. That’s our current
intention. Again, this is another very challenging piece of
legislation that we’re seeking to introduce but it’s
something that I am very keen to ensure we have all views
expressed. We will be legislating on this; that is my intention. As
I said, I will be bringing more to the Chamber and to committee. I
think, to offer to the Member—I know, an avid campaigner on
this very issue—what I want to set out for the people of
Wales is a package, a suite, of tools around parenting. I think it
would be unfortunate for us just to come to the table to say,
‘You cannot do this’, without providing additional
support elsewhere. So, I’m looking at the parenting and
family support mechanisms we have in place to enhance the
experience of children growing up and I will legislate on the side
of that too. So, I’m looking at how we develop that programme
as we move forward but will look forward to, actually, the
committee’s intervention with this too, about what
experiences you can bring to the floor, so that I can create the
right policy for the people of Wales.
|
[192] Julie
Morgan: So, are you starting the work with the parenting
now?
|
[193] Carl
Sargeant: Obviously, we’ve got the childcare pledge, so
my department is quite challenged in terms of what we are trying to
achieve, but we are already starting again looking at—. So,
I’ve tasked the team with looking at parent intervention
programmes—not just within my department; health and social
services have those too, and education. What is it that they do?
What is it we do? Who’s got the best practice? What do people
see on the ground—so, health and social workers? How do we
manage the support mechanisms we currently have and how can we take
them into the future to have a better solution? What we don’t
want to do—and it’s certainly not the intention of this
Government, and I know it’s not of the Member either—is
to criminalise parents in any way. What we’re trying to do is
to give people a better growing environment and that’s what,
certainly, I’m seeking to do. Again, discussions with
charities will start very shortly—and lobby organisations,
children’s representation groups. There’s been an awful
lot of work already done on this, so we’re not starting from
standstill, but what I do want to be assured of, as Minister
responsible for this, is that we’ve got the support
mechanisms in place for parents that can enhance their experience
of growing up with young people. It can be a hugely challenging
time for some people but, you know, we’ve got to be able to
step into that space and support individuals too.
|
[194] Lynne
Neagle: Thank you. Darren.
|
[195] Darren
Millar: Yes, I just wanted to ask you about this, Minister,
because, of course, you say you don’t want to criminalise
parents yet that’s precisely what this law may actually end
up doing unless those other tools are available. I can’t
understand why you as a Minister, or as a Cabinet Secretary now,
would want to rush into legislating on this when you haven’t
made all of these other tools available across the whole of Wales
in terms of supporting people to make other positive parenting
choices that don’t involve reasonable chastisement of their
children. You also accept that other forms of discipline can be
equally if not more abusive to children, potentially, when they are
misused or used in the wrong way. What are you going to do to deal
with those issues also? Why is there such a focus on smacking?
|
[196] Carl
Sargeant: I know the Member has an equally strong view as other
Members in this committee in the opposite direction in terms of
this and I acknowledge that. That isn’t where I sit and
we’ll have to agree to disagree on some of those terms the
Member uses. Can I just say that I don’t agree with the
Member that we don’t have parenting plans across Wales? I
think there is some consistency and we can enhance that in terms of
the ability to share with parents a better programme. As I said,
there are intervention programmes already in place where there are
parents struggling to be good parents—
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[197] Darren
Millar: But they’re not equally accessible, are they?
|
[198] Carl
Sargeant: If you let me finish, as I was kind enough to do for
you, the issue for me is making sure that we can have some
consistency around support for parents in the longer term, which
will also come with legislation on the back of that, where I will
be legislating for this programme. The First Minister has been very
clear on that. I want to do that with the sector and with parents
to give them confidence that this isn’t about
criminalisation. And quite frankly, Darren, if parents go beyond
the pale—what I would consider abuse in the smacking
process—quite frankly, there should be some criminal activity
around that. I’m not saying that parents who are challenged
at a certain time in life who end up feeling that the only process
is smacking—then, we need to educate and support those
parents. If it becomes the norm to do this all the time and
physically abuse your child in that way, then I think there is a
problem and we need to intervene there. So, we’ll have to
agree to disagree on the process, but I’m sure we will have
lots of opportunities to discuss the policy as that develops over
the next couple of months.
|
[199] Darren
Millar: Can I just come back on that? You and I both agree that
we need to promote other tools of discipline. I have no issue with
you there at all, Minister. My question is—lots of parents
across Wales use smacking as a reasonable form of discipline. They
use it sparingly in the confines of their loving relationship with
their child as a tool of discipline. There are other tools that are
available. Some of those parents will not be familiar with those
tools and will not have had them used in their own upbringing.
Clearly, there needs to be access to positive parenting for
everybody. There isn’t that equity of access at the moment.
Why are you rushing to legislate before that equity of access is
there?
|
[200]
Lynne Neagle: We need a brief answer.
|
[201]
Carl Sargeant: I’ll be very quick. There is equity of
access.
|
[202]
Darren Millar: There isn’t.
|
[203]
Carl Sargeant: We have a public awareness campaign for parenting,
‘Give it time’, which is accessible to everybody should
they so wish. What we’ve got to do as a Government and units
across Wales is be more proactive in pushing the positive parenting
agenda. We just disagree. I think the process around smacking is
something we’re not going to agree on. But I will be
legislating in this term.
|
[204]
Michelle Brown:
Just a small question. What is the
sanction going to be for parents who smack their children? What are
you going to do with them?
|
[205]
Carl Sargeant: We’ll have to devise the legislation to be
proportionate in terms of what that will mean. But as I said
earlier on, where parents become what would be considered to be
abusive, and have an abusive relationship with a young person in
their family, then there would be, ultimately, a criminal sanction.
But this is not a process of seeking to criminalise parents. This
is a process of supporting parents. Ultimately, there are already
sanctions in place, and Darren raised this earlier on,
for—other than smacking—abusive relationships with
young people. There are intervention powers already in terms of
that. This is—
|
[206] Darren
Millar: [Inaudible.]
|
[207]
Lynne Neagle: Darren, don’t interrupt.
|
[208]
Carl Sargeant: This is very specific in terms of smacking and
that’s something that we are very keen to make sure that
we—. This was part of our manifesto commitment. People made a
choice, in terms of the electorate, and it’s something that
we will be committing to legislating on in this term of
Government.
|
[209] Lynne Neagle: We’re going to move on from this now, because
this is a big issue that we will be spending time on in the future.
You mentioned in your earlier remarks about Funky Dragon and the
whole issue of a youth parliament. I’m sure we’ve all
been lobbied on that issue. Are
you able to provide any update on Government thinking in that
area?
|
[210] Carl
Sargeant: I think I alluded to the fact that I am very keen to
engage with young people in the groups and making sure that our
policy objectives are influenced by young people and will continue
to do that. In terms of—and the First Minister has, I think,
made this publicly clear as well—of the youth parliament, I
don’t think that’s a matter for the Government. I think
that is a matter for the Assembly and a matter for the Commission,
I would suggest. I think the First Minister has, if he hasn’t
written to the Presiding Officer in that respect—. We are not
opposed to that at all. I think, actually, it is a really good
idea, but it’s not our idea. I think it’s a matter for
the Assembly to decide whether there should be a youth parliament,
and it’s something the committee may have a view on.
That’s the Government position on that.
|
[211]
Lynne Neagle: Okay. Thank you. We’ll move on now, then, to
the general area of children’s rights. Darren.
|
[212]
Darren Millar: Minister, one of the passions that I know you and I
both share is the children’s rights agenda. We were very
proud to be Members of the Assembly at the time when the Rights of
Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011, and the
recognition of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the
Child, were enshrined in Welsh law. Can you tell me whether you
have any plans to look at, perhaps, the role of the children's
commissioner for Wales and the powers of the children’s
commissioner, to ensure that those rights are always upheld, and
also whether there are plans to extend the due-regard principle to
local authorities, health boards and other parts of the public
sector in a way that they are not currently there at the
moment?
|
[213]
Carl Sargeant: Early days—I haven’t given that much
thought in that process, in terms of extending the powers. But I
have met the children’s commissioner on several
occasions—at the Eisteddfod and in a recent meeting in my
office too. She is a very robust commissioner, if I may say, which
I am pleased about, because I think that the principle of the
independence of the commissioner is an important one to challenge
Government and public bodies. It is something that I think was
enhanced by the WFG Act, in terms of the children’s element
of that, and ensuring that the engagement process is embedded in
the decision making for 44 public bodies. But I am aware that the
commissioners have met collectively—so, all of the
commissioners—I don’t know what you would call a
collective, but I’ve got a view—
|
[214]
Darren Millar: A cluck of commissioners.
[Laughter.]
|
[215]
Carl Sargeant: I perhaps won’t share that with the committee.
But the commissioners have met collectively to see how their pincer
movements on public bodies and Government could be enhanced about
challenging—and quite rightly so. I mean, we’ve put
these people in place to be critical friends, and I think the
children’s commissioner has been very effective at that. We
saw a report on the UNCRC—a UK Government report on
it—the other week, and we’re formulating a response to
that. Going back to the ethos of what I want to do, it is to embed
and enshrine what the rights are. But actually, we should go beyond
that. Young people are part of our life. They are our future
generations, and we should listen to them much more
carefully.
|
[216]
Part of our problem in society is that we
tell young people what they have to do, as opposed to asking them
what we should be doing. So, I am trying to rejuvenate our
department about thinking about what we do with Government
policy.
|
[217]
Darren Millar: Just in terms of the commissioner specifically, and
her role, obviously there was discussion in the previous Assembly,
and I think the Welsh Government indicated it wanted to take
something forward, on having greater consistency around the
framework by which the appointments and the terms of the
commissioners are set, and the powers available to commissioners as
well. Are you saying that that is still something that the
Government is committed to, or is the Government actively
considering it?
|
[218]
Carl Sargeant: It is a matter for the First Minister, in terms of
the process of the commissioner. I recall that there was a report
done about the commissioners and appointments, et cetera. I think
it would be reasonable to say that there should be some consistency
considered around these processes, but it is a matter for the First
Minister, not for me.
|
[219]
Lynne Neagle: Julie.
|
[220]
Julie Morgan: It’s very interesting that the three
commissioners are all women. You are talking about consistency.
What I wanted to ask was—
|
[221]
Carl Sargeant: And the Prime Minister later.
|
[222] Julie Morgan: Oh
yes, later on. Yes. We have mentioned the Measure and how it should
be embodied in the work of the Government. I just wondered
whether you’ve been able yet to make any assessment about
whether everything we do here in terms of policy and in terms of
the laws we make, that children are right at the centre of that.
Has there been any assessment of that, or have you made any
assessment since you came into post?
|
[223] Carl
Sargeant: I haven’t made an assessment. Of course, my
answer, as a Government Minister, will be, ‘Well, of course
there is’. Am I convinced of that? Probably not, if I’m
honest. I think what we’ve got to make sure—. Having a
new ministry is an exciting process but quite scary too. I
fortunately had this portfolio before and I’ve got some
experience in that. I’m trying to now understand: what is our
decision-making process here, how does it start? That’s why
my team find, perhaps, the way I operate slightly different to some
other Ministers, because I am focusing on what’s our starting
position here rather than a policy-led civil service expert group
pushing an agenda forward. My objective would be: what’s your
experience of this and what’s the problem we’ve got to
resolve? So, I’m talking to people you may be familiar with
around domestic violence services, which comes under my remit as
well now. So, I’m talking to Rachel Court, a domestic
violence survivor, who knows—her experience is invaluable to
what we think is going to happen in that process. But actually
talking to people. So, children play that important role as well.
So, I’m saying to my team, ‘Evidence to me’,
because the commissioner will be asking me this: ‘What have
you done to engage young people and develop policy?’ So, my
view is: start at the other end, turn the lens round, let’s
start about people and let’s work our policy backwards.
|
[224] Lynne
Neagle: I’ve got a question in relation to that. The
previous committee had a particular bugbear about the publication
of children’s rights impact assessments, and we were very
keen to see more openness in terms of that whole process. I just
wondered how you saw your role in taking that forward, how open
you’re planning to be with the CRIAs, and also how you plan
to use your role, as children’s Minister, to drive that open
CRIA process with other Ministers.
|
[225] Carl
Sargeant: I think there is a very different way Government is
operating in this term already. There is a closer synergy.
It’s an instruction by the First Minister about how we
integrate our policy developments. One example, not for this forum,
but one of my other commitments, is around delivering 20,000 new
homes in Wales, which is another huge challenge, but we’ll do
it. I was talking to Ken Skates, the Minister for the economy, the
other day about this opportunity and the challenges that I face.
His words were: ‘Your 20,000 homes delivery plan isn’t
your problem; it’s our problem’. I found that
incredibly relieving in terms of that it wasn’t just mine; we
had to think about the Government. So, the cross-party operation of
Government now is inbred in terms of how we’re going to start
doing business. So, the issue for children—and it’s a
great lever for me because, policy-wise, I say to all of my
colleagues across the Cabinet, ‘You have to have
consideration for children, and I will be pushing you very hard.
So, whether that’s in education or whether that’s in
economic development, what is it you’re doing to ensure that
children are in that space?’ I will be very open about that.
If we’re failing in that position or not delivering on that,
I’m quite happy to say that, because it’s a Government
responsibility. Our young people are very important to making sure
we get the right Wales for the future.
|
[226] Lynne
Neagle: Do you still see the CRIA as a key part of that?
|
[227] Carl
Sargeant: I’ll have to give that some more thought in
terms of how I want to make sure you have confidence in challenging
us and seeing what’s happening in the environment. I will
drop the committee a note on that specifically.
|
[228] Lynne
Neagle: Okay. Thank you. If there are no other questions to the
Minister, can I thank him for his attendance today, and also the
officials who have attended as well? I think it’s been a
really useful run-through of a wide range of issues in his
portfolio. So, thank you very much for your time.
|
[229] Carl
Sargeant: Thank you.
|
11:39
|
Papur i’w
Nodi
Paper to Note
|
[230] Lynne
Neagle: Okay. We’ll move on now, then, to item 4, which
is papers to note. We’ve got one paper to note, which is the
correspondence from the Presiding Officer to myself as Chair of
this committee. It just sets out the Assembly’s expectations
and the support available. Are Members happy to note that? Thank
you.
|
11:40
|
Cynnig o dan Reol
Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y
Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to Resolve to Exclude the
Public from the Remainder of the Meeting
|
Cynnig:
|
Motion:
|
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y
cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(ix).
|
that the committee resolves
to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in
accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix).
|
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
|
|
[231] Lynne
Neagle: Item 5, then. Can I propose, in accordance with
Standing Order 17.42(ix) that the committee now resolves to meet in
private for the remainder of this meeting? Are Members content?
Thank you.
|
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.
|
|
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am
11:40.
The public part of the meeting ended at 11:40.
|