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Cofnod y Trafodion
The Record of Proceedings

Y Pwyllgor Cyllid

The Finance Committee

14/07/2016

 

 

Agenda’r Cyfarfod
Meeting Agenda

Trawsgrifiadau’r Pwyllgor
Committee Transcripts


Cynnwys
Contents

 

4        Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest      

 

4        Papurau i'w Nodi
Papers to Note

 

5        Ystyried Adran 7, Deddf Archwilio Cyhoeddus (Cymru) 2013

Consideration of Section 7, Public Audit (Wales) Act 2013

 

8        Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod

Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting         

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle y mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

 

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

 


 

Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol
Committee members in attendance

 

Mike Hedges
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

 

Steffan Lewis
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Plaid Cymru
The Party of Wales

 

Eluned Morgan
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

 

Nick Ramsay
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh Conservatives

 

Mark Reckless
Bywgraffiad|Biography

UKIP Cymru
UKIP Wales

 

Simon Thomas
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Plaid Cymru (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor)
The Party of Wales (Committee Chair)

 

Eraill yn bresennol
Others in attendance

 

Claire Clancy

Prif Weithredwr a Chlerc Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru
Chief Executive and Clerk to the National Assembly for Wales

Matthew Richards

Uwch Gynghorydd Cyfreithiol, Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru
Senior Legal Adviser, National Assembly for Wales

 

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol
National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance

 

Bethan Davies

Clerc
Clerk

 

Martin Jennings

Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil
The Research Service

 

Gerallt Roberts

Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

 

Joanest Varney-Jackson

Legal Services
Gwasanaethau Cyfreithiol

 

Dechreuodd rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod am 09:54.
The public part of the meeting began at 09:54.

 

Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

[1]          Simon Thomas: Diolch yn fawr, felly, a chroeso, yn ffurfiol, i’r cyfarfod cyhoeddus o’r Pwyllgor Cyllid. Rwy’n croesawu Prif Weithredwraig Comisiwn Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, Claire Clancy, atom ni.

 

Simon Thomas: Thank you, and welcome, formally, to the public meeting of the Finance Committee. I welcome the Chief Executive of the National Assembly for Wales Commission, Claire Clancy.

Papurau i'w Nodi
Papers to Note

 

[2]          Simon Thomas: Cyn i ni droi at y mater dan sylw, rwyf i jest yn gofyn i Aelodau nodi’r papurau sydd gennym ni gerbron—cofnodion y cyfarfod blaenorol. Nodi; pawb yn hapus? Hefyd, llythyr oddi wrth yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet dros Gyllid a Llywodraeth Leol ataf i, dyddiedig 8 Gorffennaf, a oedd yn rhoi bach mwy o’r wybodaeth a ofynnwyd amdani parthed parthau menter. Jest i dynnu’ch sylw chi, yn sgil beth yr oedd y pwyllgor yn gofyn i’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, sef am ychydig mwy o wybodaeth ynglŷn â nifer y busnesau a fydd yn cael eu cefnogi gan y polisi yma, nid yw’n arfer gan y Llywodraeth, mae’n debyg, i gasglu gwybodaeth am y swyddi sy’n cael eu cynnal gan y polisi. Mae’n siŵr y byddech chi, fel aelodau’r pwyllgor, am ddychwelyd at hynny pan fyddwn ni’n craffu ar y gyllideb ac ar wariant y Llywodraeth. Ond, am y tro, rydym yn ei nodi yng nghyd-destun y gyllideb atodol. Pawb yn hapus, felly?

 

Simon Thomas: Before we turn to the issue at hand, I just ask Members to note the papers before us—minutes of the previous meeting. Everyone happy with that? Also, a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to me as Chair, dated 8 July, which gave a bit more of the information that we asked for regarding enterprise zones. Just to draw your attention, as a result of what the committee asked the Cabinet Secretary to give, which was a little bit more information about the number of businesses that will be supported by this policy, the Government doesn’t usually gather information, it seems, about the jobs that are supported by this policy. I’m sure that you, as members of the committee, would like to return to this when we scrutinise the budget and Government expenditure. But, for now, we note it in the context of the supplementary budget. Is everyone happy with that?

 

[3]          Fe wnaf i jest eich atgoffa chi bod offer cyfieithu ar gael, ac nad ydym ni’n disgwyl unrhyw larwm tân. Felly, os clywch chi larwm tân, dilynwch Claire Clancy, a fydd yn ein harwain ni allan o’r sefyllfa.

 

I would like to remind you that interpretation equipment is available, and we don’t expect any fire alarms. So, if you hear a fire alarm, follow Claire Clancy, who will lead us out of the situation.

09:55

 

Ystyried Adran 7, Deddf Archwilio Cyhoeddus (Cymru) 2013
Consideration of Section 7, Public Audit (Wales) Act 2013

 

[4]          Simon Thomas: Mae rheswm dros bresenoldeb Claire Clancy y bore yma, os caf i dynnu sylw’r pwyllgor at y sefyllfa. Mae Deddf Archwilio Cyhoeddus (Cymru) 2013 yn rhoi nifer o bwerau i’r Cynulliad ac, yn 2013, cafodd rhai swyddogaethau eu dirprwyo i’r Pwyllgor Cyllid, y pwyllgor hwn, drwy’r Rheolau Sefydlog. Felly ni, y Pwyllgor Cyllid, yw’r pwyllgor cyfrifol, fel y nodir o dan Reol Sefydlog 18.10. Felly, rwy’n gofyn i Aelodau ystyried adran 7 o Ddeddf Archwilio Cyhoeddus (Cymru), ac yn gofyn ichi’n benodol i ystyried cydnabyddiaeth Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru—hynny yw, sut mae’r archwilydd yn cael ei dalu. Mae adran 7 o’r Ddeddf yn ymwneud â thalu cydnabyddiaeth i’r archwilydd cyffredinol ac yn pennu taw ni, Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, sydd i wneud y trefniadau ar gyfer talu cydnabyddiaeth, ar ôl ymgynghori â’r Prif Weinidog. Mae Atodlen 3 i’r Ddeddf yn darparu ar gyfer parhau â’r trefniadau trosiannol cyn 2013 mewn perthynas â’r archwilydd cyffredinol, oherwydd taw’r un person, wrth gwrs, rydym yn sôn amdano. Mae Atodlen 3 yn nodi bod yn rhaid i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wneud trefniadau ar gyfer talu cydnabyddiaeth i’r archwilydd cyffredinol cyn i’r darpariaethau ddod i rym. Ni wnaed hynny, ac mae’r archwilydd cyffredinol wedi parhau i gael ei dalu o dan ei amodau a thelerau blaenorol, heb fod y pwyllgor wedi penderfynu felly.

 

Simon Thomas: There is a reason for Claire Clancy’s presence this morning, if I can draw the attention of Members to the situation. The Public Audit (Wales) Act 2013 confers a number of powers on the Assembly and, in 2013, some functions were delegated to the Finance Committee, this committee, through Standing Orders. Therefore we, as the Finance Committee, are the responsible committee, as detailed under Standing Order 18.10. So, I ask Members to consider section 7 of the Public Audit (Wales) Act and specifically ask you to consider the issue of the remuneration of the Auditor General for Wales—i.e., how the auditor general is paid. Section 7 of the Act relates to the remuneration of the auditor general and specifies that we, as the National Assembly for Wales, are to make the arrangement for the remuneration, following consultation with the First Minister. Schedule 3 to the Act provides for transitional arrangements prior to 2013 in relation to the auditor general, because we’re talking about the same person, of course. Schedule 3 details that the National Assembly is to make the remuneration arrangements for the auditor general before the provision comes into force. That was not done, and the auditor general has continued to be paid under his previous terms and conditions, without a resolution by the committee.

[5]          Mae Clerc a Phrif Weithredwr Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru wedi ysgrifennu at y Prif Weinidog i ymgynghori ag ef ynglŷn â’r ffordd ymlaen sy’n cael ei chynnig i’r pwyllgor heddiw. Felly, rwy’n croesawu Claire Clancy eto i ateb unrhyw gwestiynau sydd gan yr Aelodau ar y sefyllfa sydd gerbron y pwyllgor. A oes unrhyw gwestiynau? Os nad oes cwestiynau penodol, a gaf i ofyn i Claire Clancy, os gwnewch chi, i ddweud wrth y pwyllgor pa gamau rydych wedi eu cymryd yn weinyddol i sicrhau na fydd sefyllfa fel hon yn codi eto.

 

The Clerk and Chief Executive of the National Assembly for Wales has written to the First Minister to consult him on the proposed way forward that is being put to the committee today. So, I welcome Claire Clancy again to answer any questions that Members have on the situation here today before committee. Are there any questions? If there are no specific questions, could I just ask Claire Clancy, if I could, to tell the committee which actions you’ve taken administratively to ensure that such a situation won’t arise again.

[6]          Mrs Clancy: Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. If I could formally apologise to the committee that this technical oversight took place. In order to ensure that it can’t happen again, for future legislation, we will always have a systematic implementation plan and also clearly defined responsibilities for those individuals who will be held accountable for making sure that any provisions within legislation are implemented effectively.

 

[7]          Simon Thomas: Diolch am hynny. Mark Reckless.

 

Simon Thomas: Thank you for that. Mark Reckless.

[8]          Mark Reckless: Could you also confirm that this was a technical mistake within the Assembly and in no way a mistake of the Auditor General for Wales, and that he has also had no involvement in the steps we need to rectify our own technical error?

 

[9]          Mrs Clancy: Yes, Chair. I absolutely confirm this was a mistake made within the Assembly Commission. Since the point that I drew it to the attention of the auditor general, he’s had no involvement whatsoever. It has had no impact on his terms and conditions or his remuneration, which have continued to be paid under the terms that were agreed in 2010.

 

[10]      Mark Reckless: Thank you.

 

[11]      Simon Thomas: A oes unrhyw gwestiynau neu sylwadau pellach gan y pwyllgor? Nac oes. Os felly, a gaf i ofyn i’r pwyllgor, yn gyntaf oll, i nodi’r ohebiaeth a fu rhwng y prif weithredwr a’r Prif Weinidog, sy’n unol â gofynion y Ddeddf, a hefyd ystyried sut y mae’r archwilydd cyffredinol yn cael ei dalu a phenderfynu a chymeradwyo a ddylid parhau â’r trefniadau presennol? A yw’r pwyllgor yn gytûn y dylid parhau â’r trefniadau presennol gan unioni’r sefyllfa sydd wedi codi? A oes unrhyw un yn gwrthwynebu? A yw pawb yn hapus? Os felly, a gaf i ddweud bod hynny wedi ei gymeradwyo gan y pwyllgor. Diolch i Claire Clancy a Matthew Richards am ddod i mewn i roi cyngor ac esboniad i’r y pwyllgor. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

 

Simon Thomas: Are there any further comments or questions from the committee? I see not. If so, could I ask the committee, first of all, to note the correspondence between the chief executive and the First Minister, in accordance with the requirements of the Act, and also to consider the remuneration of the auditor general and to decide whether the current arrangements should remain in place? Does the committee agree that the current arrangements should remain, which would rectify the situation that has arisen? Does anyone oppose that? Is everyone happy? If so, I’ll say that that has been approved by the committee. I thank Claire Clancy and Matthew Richards for coming in to provide advice and an explanation to the committee. Thank you very much.

 

[12]      Mrs Clancy: Diolch.

 

[13]      Simon Thomas: Rydym yn awr yn symud yn ôl—mae’r goleuni ar y sefyllfa wedi codi; diolch yn fawr—

 

Simon Thomas: We now move back—we’ve had some light on the situation; thank you very much for that—

 

[14]      Nick Ramsay: Why were we in darkness?

 

[15]      Simon Thomas: I had asked why we were in darkness; I asked for some light on the situation, and it did come.

 

10:00

 

Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting

 

Cynnig:

 

Motion:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

 

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

 

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.

 

[16]      Simon Thomas: Rwyf nawr yn cynnig ein bod ni yn mynd yn ôl i sesiwn breifat o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 ac yn gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod hwn. A oes gwrthwynebiad? A yw pawb yn gytûn? Os felly, awn ni i mewn i sesiwn breifat. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

 

Simon Thomas: I now propose that we return to a private session under Standing Order 17.42 and resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is there an objection? Does everyone agree? If so, we will move into private session. Thank you very much.

 

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.

 

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:00.
The public part of the meeting ended at 10:00.